The Doctrine by which the Church stands or falls, Volume 2...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by D28guy, Oct 26, 2007.

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  1. D28guy

    D28guy
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    The other thread has been "closed" by the mods so I started this in case anyone wants to countinue, and also so I can respond to a post adressed to me.

    Doubting Thomas,

    I just came upon your post to me a few pages back from the last one.

    You posted about 4-5 very long posts to me, with your comments in between these passages of scripture...



    They were from so many different posts, and long posts at that, that I just dont have time to post them all in there entirety and comment on every statement you made.

    But those are the scripture passages you posted, and this comment of your sums up what you were trying to say...

    OK, all I am going to say is that every single scripture you posted is well known to everyone on my side of this arguement. (the truth of justification through faith alone)

    Those passages of scripture do not disturb our position in that slightest bit. They fit like a hand in a glove with the truth of justification through faith in Christ alone. You are doing the same thing that the Roman Catholic cult does so well, and that is to fail to interpret them in light of the whole of scripture. In light of the whole of scripture, we end up with those passages speaking to more than one issue, but they never speak to our works having any part in our justification.

    Sometimes the negative consequence of falling away, or disobedience, is to lose the rewards that would have been ours in heaven, as opposed to gaining them. Sometimes the negative consequences are problems in this life that could have been avoided. Sometimes the negative consequences are the sorrow we experience after failing. Sometimes they speak to Gods chastisement. Somethimes the scriptures you posted speak of people who have never been truly born again. They have been imposters. Sometimes they encourage us to live properly because we are children of the Light...through faith alone...and its the only truly rewarding way to live. On and on and on it goes.

    But they DO NOT teach that justication is "part God" and "part our being good"

    We are justified in Gods eyes through faith alone. It could not possibly be any clearer.

    Our "new life" is an overflow of what has happened by faith alone.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  2. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    An accusation which can easily be made against your side of the fence too. So where does all this mutual mud-slinging leave us?
     
  3. Bro. James

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    Looking Through Muddy Water

    Just a passing kibbitz: we are back to Sola Scriptura; see also Eph. 2:8-10, use the Duay-Confraternity if you like. It says the same in Swahili. Now what?

    Why are we always at impasse? Maybe "Sola Cathedra"?

    hola.

    Bro. James
     
    #3 Bro. James, Oct 26, 2007
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  4. Eliyahu

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    Good Point !
    I wonder why they do not try to use " Sola Ex-Cathedra " more often.
    Is it because they don't like to make Infallible Statement? Is it because the Holy Spirit doesn't give them such chance? Has the Holy Spirit forsaken them?

    What is the position of the "Mother Church" ? They have to answer.
     
  5. Agnus_Dei

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    What’s the position of Protestantism? If I gather a group of pastors representing the Church of Christ, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, SDA, Presbyterian into a room and ask them a simple question regarding water baptism and its affect in regard to the salvation of man…who out of the list above can speak collectively for the group?

    ICXC NIKA
    -
     
  6. EdSutton

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    You ask any group of a 5 preachers :1_grouphug: any one question, and you'll get 8-10 different responses.
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    AND -
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    no two of them will be exactly the same. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
    #6 EdSutton, Oct 26, 2007
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  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    So what's the point, then? What's the point of sola Scriptura if you get five different answers? What epistemological value can it possibly have?
     
  8. EdSutton

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    In my case, I was only making a humorous observation.
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    And adding one more post, in order to 'up' my post count by 'one', trying to hit 5K, before another round of deletions knocks it back another 200. :laugh: :thumbs: :D

    Ed
     
  9. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    You have a long way to go then; the Force is strong within you but you are not a Jedi yet!
     
  10. Eliyahu

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    So, do you mean your religion is the best because your religion coerce the faith upon the people even by the torture and killing?

    Your religion doesn't allow the freedom of choice on the Faith, right?

    This is why we still need the Sola Scriptura for the universal basis for the truth and practices.
     
  11. Matt Black

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    Except that, as Ed has pointed out (wittingly or otherwise), it is of no value epistemologically.
     
  12. EdSutton

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    You think I'm only half right, maybe, with the wit? :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  13. EdSutton

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    Some others will get this, but it may take a while, you understand! :confused:

    Ed
     
  14. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    It depends how slow-witted they are...!:laugh:
     
  15. Bro. James

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    The Point:

    Sola scriptura is provided by God as the infallible standard of Truth. "Sanctify them in Thy Truth, Thy Word is Truth." Jesus said this to The Father regarding His disciples.

    How does one get through the maze of this religious world? Jesus told Nicodemus, a well educated religious teacher, he needed to be born again to enter the kingdom. Nick had not a clue, even though well versed in the doctrines of men. The same is true today. One cannot understand Scripture nor separate The Word of God from the commandments of men in a state of unregeneration.
    There are lost people in high places--even in Christendom.

    If there is confusion, God is not the author. One quess as to the author. Sola Scripture still stands whether we believe it or not. God has said what He means--He means what He says. See: the Flood of Noah. The earth was destroyed save those in the ark--120 years after the announcement from God. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The religious world scoffed.

    Nearly 2,000 years ago God said this world is going to melt with fervent heat--and everything in it. Many of us act as if He did not mean what He said. "Wait and see" will not provide the answer. Today is the day of salvation. We could join every "church" on this globe and still go to the pit.

    Now what?

    Bro. James
     
  16. Doubting Thomas

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    Ah...I was wondering if you could find those posts that had become buried in what had somehow devolved into a debate about the LXX/Deutercanonicals. (I refer anyone interested to my responses on page 27 of the original "The Doctrine by which the Church stands or falls" thread). I had responded to a comment Mike made in response to Matt Black:

    I had pointed out in my responses that if that's Mike's criteria for "double-talking" and "flip-floppin" then the Apostles might qualify based on their statements which I listed in my posts.

    Those are some but not all of the Scriptural passages posted, and that comment does sum up what I was trying to say about Paul's teaching. I also made similar comments regarding the other Apostles' teachings. However, I then looked at the statements of Christ Himself, after which I concluded by saying this:
    So picking up with your response....
    Whether these are "well known to everyone" on your side of the argument or not, they certainly have not been adequately dealt with, if your explanations offered below are in anyway typical of how your side tries to deal with these passages in light of your position.

    Not really, but do go on...

    Actually the reverse is true. You and others who subscribe to "sola fide" can't find a single passage that states "one is justified by faith alone", and the passages you do offer as alleged evidence for this position fail to prove that when they are interpreted in their contexts and in light of the whole of Scripture. (Of course, it's convenient for you to continue bringing up the "Roman Catholic cult" bogeyman rather than to actually back up your assertions with evidence.)

    Continued.....
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

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    Continuing on....

    Except that one of the verses that you conveniently left out (that I mentioned in the earlier thread) actually does speak about that issue:

    “You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (2:24)

    ...and that in context James is in fact talking about SALVATION: “What does it profit, my brethren [ie CHRISTIANS], if someone says he has faith and does not have works? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?” (James 2:14)

    Except that in several of the passages I offered, it's not mere rewards in heaven that are being lost or gained, it's 'Heaven' itself that's lost or gained!

    Again, here's Peter:
    “But also for this reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged of his old sins. Therefore brethren be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1:5-11).

    And Paul:
    "[God] who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'; eternal life to do those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:6-10)

    And here's Christ Himself(another passage you neglected to include when quoting me above):
    “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (John 5:28-29)

    So is the resurrection of condemnation given to those "who have done evil" mere "chastisement"?

    Also look at Hebrews again:
    For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation that will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:26-29)

    So is " certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation that will devour the adversaries" mere "chastisement"???

    Except Paul and Jesus both speak of people ("branches") who are currently in Christ actually being "cut off" from the Vine (Christ)--just as the unbelieving Jews were (Romans 11: 19-22)--if they don't continue/abide in Him:
    “Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, but you stand [present tense] by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.” (Romans 11:20-22)

    If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch.(John 15:6)

    “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away” (John 15:2)

    So these passages are speaking of the consequences for those in Christ if they don't continue to abide in Him. In other words, these aren't people "who have never been born again"


    “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)
    Not only is living as children of light "truly rewarding", our being cleansed by the blood of Christ is contigent on us presently walking in the Light.

    “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth of God is not in him.” (1 John 2:3-4)

    Notice John doesn't say here "if one doesn't keep His commandements...well...he really should because that's the only truly rewarding way to live." Rather, John calls that one a "liar" who claims to know God yet doesn't keep His commandments and that "the truth of God is not in him"

    Indeed it does. :BangHead:

    A point which you have repeatedly failed to demonstrate, and which is actually falsified by Scripture.
     
  18. D28guy

    D28guy
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    Agnus Dei,

    Thats interesting.

    Back when I was lost, and experiencing conviction, God caused many different persuasions of born again people to cross my path and witness to me. Baptists. Pentecostals. Southern Baptists. Church of Christ. Nazarene. Charismatics. Cambellite non-denominationals, etc etc.

    They had different ways of articulating truth, and different things they emphasised. But I heard the same gospel from all of them.

    The same truth that I was lost and dead, Christ personally...not "church" (God forbid) was my answer, and I could be born again and secured for heaven through faith in Christ.

    Regarding water baptism, the only thing about that issue is that is essential that it is to be practiced, and it is symbolic of the already attained new birth. Nothing more. Beyond that...when? How? Immersion? Sprinkling? etc...each believer or group is free to their convictions.

    God has ordained it to be that way...

    Thats the freedom Gods people have in Christ. To those caught in the tentacles and bondage of Rome (and likeminded organisations) that freedom can be intimidating and frightening. Difficult to deal with.

    But it is Gods way. And its a beautiful thing to behold.

    We have been set free from bondage, and delivered into grace and freedom...



    Grace, peace and FREEDOM,

    Mike
     
    #18 D28guy, Oct 27, 2007
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  19. D28guy

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    Doubting Thomas,

    I, and so many others, have demonstrated it scripturally over and over and over again. And we will continue to do so. The truth extinguishes the darkness of scriptural error.

    Nooooo, the *attempt* is made to pervert Gods truth by counterfiet groups like the Romish church and others. But Gods truth stands like a brilliant shimmering light in the midst of great darkness.

    (and oh how we love to boast. We just have to take some credit so that we can say that (((WE EARNED IT!!!))). God help us)

    And by the way, some people think that passages ends there, but it gets even better...

    What a beautiful thing it is. The works arent even ours...they are HIS works! God tells us that the changed life we experience flows out of the justification through faith alone that has occured, and the works are prepared beforehand for us! We arent *grunting* and *sweating out* our new life!

    No. The good works manifest themself almost on their own as Gods "prepared beforehand" new life flows through us to others.

    What a great God we serve!!! \o/

    Mike
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
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    To those who take a position against "salvation is by faith alone," there are typically two childish responses.
    1. The Bible never says that salvation is "by faith alone," as if it has to have that exact wording to express the idea. This is really a ridiculous point in logic.
    2. And second, But look at James 2:24 where it does say "not by faith alone," a verse taken far out of context as demonstrated above. I am not going into that right now for it requires more of a lengthy response which even if I were to give DT would not accept.
    3. The truth of the matter, even when given is often never addressed but simply avoided.
    For example many times I have gone phrase by phrase through Eph.2:8,9 demonstrating how every phrase in those two verses scream "faith alone." But the opponents would rather not respond to such an exposition and just avoid it.
    Mike has quoted dozens of verses that are beyond refutation demonstrating that salvation is by faith alone. They go unrefuted.
    As far as the few verses that DT has mentioned in the past couple of posts every one of them can be shown how either they have been quoted out of context or without context to make them seem to say something other than what they mean. If you want to go through them one by one I would be glad to, and demonstrate that there is not one verse in the posts above that contradicts the position of "faith alone." However I would recommend that one would start a separate thread on What does James 2:24 teach.
    BTW, I am not at home right now and am not able to get to a computer as often as I like. Therefore my posts will be farther apart than ususal, but I will do my best.
     
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