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The Doctrine of Original Sin

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Jul 11, 2008.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    This goes to the very core of this thread. Why not answer it?

    BBob,
     
    #61 Brother Bob, Jul 12, 2008
  2. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    Are you requiring a literal statement? I just gave you the rationale - interact with it.

    For substantiation, see Bro Bob's original quote from Job (which fits within the orthodox doctrine of infant salvation), look at Deuteronomy 1:39, read about David's son that was taken, and about Abijah, the son of Jeroboam.
     
    #62 jdlongmire, Jul 12, 2008
  3. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    RB - sorry for participating in the hijack of your thread. I am out - anyone wishing to continue the discussion about infant salvation are welcome to post here or start a new thread.
     
    #63 jdlongmire, Jul 12, 2008
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Because it is relevant to this discussion and in the thread that I started, not one Calvinist made a post in it. Most of the posts were Bro. Bob, Skypair, you and myself.

    I think the verse is important to the discussion of original sin and the belief that we are born spiritually dead.
     
    #64 Amy.G, Jul 12, 2008
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I have read all of those verses and not one says that infants have faith.
     
    #65 Amy.G, Jul 12, 2008
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    BBob, James defines death as a separation (Jas 2:26).

    1. Physical death is when the spirit separates from the body.

    2. Spiritual death is when the soul of a person is separated from God because of sin.
     
    #66 TCGreek, Jul 12, 2008
  7. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    God gives saving faith to His elect whom He loves.

    Jesus loves infants in infancy ("of such are the kingdom of Heaven").

    Infants, dying in infancy, are elect and given saving faith.

    I have given Scriptural support for all these statements. Please deconstruct or offer a rebuttal edit here.
     
    #67 jdlongmire, Jul 12, 2008
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I forget the question, but I believe I quoted when they come to know God and Glorify Him not. Which is sin.

    BBob,
     
    #68 Brother Bob, Jul 12, 2008
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I asked for a definition of death not sin.

    But you're correct about what sin is.
     
    #69 TCGreek, Jul 12, 2008
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I am sorry, but I have not seen a scripture where God gives infants "faith", posted by no one.

    BBob,
     
    #70 Brother Bob, Jul 12, 2008
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Which brings a spiritual death, right?

    BBob,
     
    #71 Brother Bob, Jul 12, 2008
  12. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    Again, I have given Scriptural support for all these statements. Please deconstruct or offer a rebuttal here
     
    #72 jdlongmire, Jul 12, 2008
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Please repost your scripture. I cannot find it.
     
    #73 Amy.G, Jul 12, 2008
  14. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Not necessarily! If a person is already spiritually separated from God, that person would only be sinning more.

    How much more can a person be separated from God in this life?
     
    #74 TCGreek, Jul 12, 2008
  15. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I hope we are defining spiritual death as separation from God. That being the case, here is how I understand this verse. Paul is speaking of himself here. He says he was alive without the law once. Of what is he speaking? "For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death." verse 5

    His being alive was his living in the flesh without the Law of God. Now Paul was a Pharisee. How can this man say he was without the Law? He was without the true sense of it, or as Gill puts it, the spirituality of it. It was Christ Jesus that came and explained the true meaning of the Law. Is this not what the sermon on the mount shows us? "You have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say to you.."

    When a person sees himself as righteous apart from Christ, that is, by the Law or his conscience, sin is dead to him. He does not see himself as a sinner. But when the commandment comes into our hearts and conscience, sin is shown to be sin and proves to us we are dead men. The Law did not bring the death, but showed it.

    "Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure." Rom 7:13, ESV

    There are some verses similiar to this. Here:

    Romans 6
    20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

    21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

    22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

    Thinking on my own experience, and conversion, and life in Christ afterwards, I say it this way: There was a time in my life when I was alive to sin and dead to God. When the commandement came, my sin appeared exceedingly sinful. After I was converted (that is, born again) I became dead to sin but alive to God. I was indeed free from righteousness, but now I am the slave of it.
     
    #75 ReformedBaptist, Jul 12, 2008
  16. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    I responded here and included some of John Calvin's commentaries.
     
    #76 jdlongmire, Jul 13, 2008
  17. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Calvin is brilliant on this passage. I am going to have to start reading his commentaries more. I am greatful that my seminary work will have me in some of his commentary by necessity--namely the Institutes, which I have but have not read.
     
    #77 ReformedBaptist, Jul 13, 2008
  18. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    I tell you what :) - I love discussion boards because they make me dig into these resources and it makes me appreciate what a fine exegete the good Dr was! :D

    I have "read over" the Institutes and need to pull them up again - so much to read, so little time!

    I hope you get exposed to Van Til, Bahnsen and Frame in your studies - really excellent thinkers.
     
    #78 jdlongmire, Jul 13, 2008
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Don't neglect Calvin's commentaries and sermons. They are top-notch -- so much weighty yet digestible stuff.Even Calvin's letters contain choice material.I really think Matthew Henry lags behind Calvin.

    I'm not much of a Van Til fan. I much prefer Gordon H. Clark. Read Herman Hoeksema and G.H.Kersten also.
     
    #79 Rippon, Jul 13, 2008
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    So, the soul that sinneth shall die, is not true???

    BBob,
     
    #80 Brother Bob, Jul 13, 2008
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