The Doctrine of Total Depravity contradicts SCRIPTURE

Skandelon,

Human beings are physically born with the wrong spirit. it is in opposition to God.

it possesses its own parameters in nature that is in opposition, even in competition with God for superiority and control.

we are depraved as we cannot comprehend anything of God. Our spirit is incapable. we do not reach for God. He reaches out to us.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


hardening takes place after a follower receives Gods seed and lacks faith to receive understanding of God. they have been given a spirit of slumber.

again the father draws. yet he doesnt draw all to Jesus. he gives some the spirit of slumber.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

yet he still has the Power to wake them from their sleep.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Me2

 

Well Sir, you fail to understand that God's plan involves MAN, each and every man who has ever lived, is living and who is yet to live. So to brush it off as simply as you just did, provides me with the insight to know that you don't know what you're talking about. You put man completely out of God's plan!

Yes, I acknowledge that God's plan was in place from the foundation of the world, while you ignore the truth that man is what God's plan is all about!

The Doctrine of Total depravity is not a doctrine that God would establish for man whom He created and called "good", indeed "very good"!

Is man depraved? Yes! -- Totally Depraved? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Can man save himself? That was never in God's plan from the beginning, so why should anyone give that a second thought?

Then what is it that man can do? Hear the word of God, believe, Confess Jesus is God the Son, the Christ, and continue believing throughout his natural life until by death he is separated from the flesh and passes from death into life everlasting.

According to the oft stated understanding of Total Depravity, man cannot hear and belief without first being regenerated. Then why did God waste his time with giving us His Holy Word, His Gift of Grace Jesus his son, and the senses necessary to hear, see, feel, sense, and the ability to think and understand, IF WE ARE NOT CAPABLE OF USING THEM?

No friend, if you adhere to the doctrine of Total Depravity you are playing right into Satan's hands. He wants to keep you suppressed in negativeness, and by believing you are incapable of interfacing with Holy God, you will remain in negativeness.

Regeneration is faith! Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! Believe it or not!

 

Mike, You may "love me from the bottom of your heart", though I would prefer you simply love me as a brother, But you do not know me and your implied accusations in the quoted scripture are out of place.

 

Human beings are born with the ONLY spirit they will ever have. It is what they do with the only spirit they have that makes the difference in the ultimate destination of their spirit.

Now let's get back to the original focus of this thread, which is Total depravity vs "Hardening" of man.

 

Yelsew do you understand Job 23:13,13 because i don't think you do.You put your will ahead of Gods will in all your writings.I can promise you one thing if you are not in his will from before the foundations of the world then you are none of his.Kinda like putting the cart ahead of the horse doctrine don't you think.Give God the Glory for his will, for salvation is not of yourself.meaning nothing you got to offer ole boy could merit you one thing in the eyes of a all knowing all wise God .He knoweth them that are his.He don't think he knows.Do you understand me.He's not waiting for us to accept him,we dead sinners couldn't do one thing on our own part to save ourselves,God knows that .Thats why salvation is of the lord and not of ourselves.He he changes you from a sinfull life to a life of joy and peace then edify him for he done he's the one that pardoned and passed by,other wise you would be left in you sins.

 

Well, at least I can say I tried.

 

Hi skandelon,

Romans 1 is specifically speaking of those who have already been called and afterwards have been hardened.... Your wrong on this one. Try again.

Romans 1 is not speaking of men "before" they were given Gods seed. Why?. because they were taught of the Holy Spirit. they received the word, yet when it came time to receive the understanding.
they lacked faith to retain the truth first given. They changed THAT TRUTH into a lie. Into their imagination. What they thought they heard.

ergo, they were hardened.

the seed has within it the spirit of christ AND the law. the law is the first seen evidence because of the guilt undergone by its possessor. it is drawing the possesor of the seed to the father. the laws job is to convict of sin.the laws job is to kill the works of the carnal flesh.

now heres the part you dont like. Gods choice towards the follower is to be a vessel of wrath or vessel of mercy.. (one or the other)
their will be a choice made by God. And NOT BY MAN

both vessels are convicted of the law, yet one is humbled to receive truth of a superior authority by faith, while the other has doubts of the truth being received.
Those having doubts eventually loose hold of this wisdom because it must be proven by receiving the understanding also. which they cant received for it also must be accepted from a superior authority by faith.
their eyes and ears are said to be stopped up. or as I have stated they are given the spirit of slumber.
cause and effect scandelon.

It is the father that chooses who he will put his seed into. It is the father that determines who is to be a vessel of wrath or mercy. It is the father who decides who will be a overcomer or repreobate.

Paul was making a parallel of the OT and the NT followers. OT followed the law. No one was saved. They Didn’t receive the spirit while they lived. All those living by the law..from moses to Jesus had their eyes and ears covered while living under the law.

they couldn’t grasp any knowledge of Good and evil with their carnal cursed spirit.

Paul continues to parallel with NT gentiles. They receive the seed. First thing. Gentiles live by the law.geez a similarity. Yet they also have the spirit within them. The parallel is within the ranks of the gentiles. Some are chosen as vessels of mercy and live by faith of the spirit. yet others are chosen as vessels of Wrath.

as you will find in the ranks of the gentiles. All of the gentiles are not vessels of mercy.

yes, In a crude way, Pauls uses the jews and gentiles as nations paralleled as vessels. Yet only within the gentile nations are both vessels found on an individual level. It works for me though. I can see it plain as day.

Yet My brain doesnt stop at such a finite thought.
I look at an absolute God existing in absolute time speaking absolute parallels. Yet we interpret these statements in a fallen world within a finite timeline. Absolutely I see:

Two groups of called out ones.
One fit for wrath and another fit for mercy.
One falls whereas the other can die for him.
Its called the law of the firstborn.
Jesus and his bride are the firstborn.
He is the vessel of mercy that God Our father asks to die for the vessel of wrath.
One group expressing mercy towards another.
All men that God calls can be found in either of the two groups.
All men are eventually saved or joined into the one group of the vessels of mercy…”in Christ”

Me2

 

Yelsew2,

if we were born with the right spirit. the entire plan of God would be moot.
unfortunately we are born with a cursed carnal spirit. one that must face the righteousness of God and be destroyed.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

there are two spirits in this world. If not, there wouldnt be a difference of opinion here.

we were born with the wrong one in our flesh that is opposed to Christ. the spirit that belong to this world that is subject to the god of this world.
the dead spirit that is satans subject. the antichrist spirit.

this is the main reason man is physically born totally depraved.


try the spirits cause theres two of um yelsew2

Me2

 

Skandelon,

this is a arminian and calvin forum. I interject the third possibility of intrepretation of christianity to give justice to Gods words completely. Its the universalism interpretation.
not a partial and incorrect interpretation as the calvinism and arminianisms interpretation.
universalism also stands by the total depravity of mankind because of the fall of Adams transgressions.

Calvinism_Arminianism_Universalism comparison Chart

all have died in Adam. All are made alive in Christ. not just some.

and skandelon..I have respect for all men desiring to find Gods truth. for it is God himself working through them

Me2

 

ME2 are you saying that you believe in Universalism? That all mankind will ultimately be saved?

 

Hardsheller,

Yep! I believe that God loves all men and he wills all to be saved. who's will is stronger?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

you would have to rearrange these statements to your own finite understanding to accept all in adam doesnt equal the same all in Christ.
I follow the absolute parallelism of God. all meaning all men here. all die, all judged, all placed in christ.

If Christ died and ransomed me. He dieE4-Br all men and ransomed all men.

Me2

 

Me2, Paul's explanation of a principle is not God revealing his plan for man!

Paul is explaining in the same manner that a lawyer would explain a principle from the Constitution of the United States of America. The explanation is not the Constitution! Neither are Paul's words God's words!

 

Yelsew2,

the letters written in the bible are annointed. they are dictated by men of the Holy spirit speaking through men.

although many believe their own personal interpretations of what they read is annointed. sorry. If God doesnt unlock the finite passages towards a more open expression to the reader. mankind is locked into his finite interpretation. the annointed inspired letters becomes just as any book. fiction without proof.

we need the bible yet it is only half of any message For the personal revelation from God gives is that found within man. we have the mind of Christ yet it is God who unlocks ideas, thoughts and expressions of reality to its posessor.

We realize this to be found in the similarities of Gods message found in the understanding of men.

is there inconsistencies found in the understanding of man. Sure Is. yet we must not cancel out interpretations based on our personal interpretations. we must let scripture validate these messages.

God speaks from the absolute. He is omniescient omnipotent. he is infinite knowledge and power. He is Sovereign over all he creates. none stand in opposition. yet it might appear some opposition. It is God who creates it to prove Himself deeper to his observers. God made satan.yet doesnt give him infinite power. his power is given to oppose when God needs this observed expression.
Satan nor man is sovereign. Only god is. and His will be done. without fail.

If you oppose God Yelsew2, dont think yourself too powerful, for the proverbial rug will be pulled someday. showing your impotence as God planned it.

So Yelsew, wether Paul, or ruth, or malachi wrote a letter. if it is annointed to express an idea of God. the possibility of it containing many levels of understanding can be assured. for there are those with many levels of comprehension and God is teaching many things to many of his children simultaneously. even with a simple idea using a coin, or bread, or water, and even two types of vessels. remember cain and able. or even jesus and judas. one obedient, the other disobedient. yet the principle is that concerning the law of thr firstborn. one dying for another. one loving another.

Me2

 

No. Bro. Bill wore us out on the subject last year. Go back and read the archives.