The Doctrine of Total Depravity Scripturally Opened and Explained

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Apr 6, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Anyone interested in following a study of the Scriptural position of the Total Depravity of man can find this at the url found just after this entry.

    This is a study that I have entered into. I believe because of the length this study shall involve that it will be ignored if posted here. I mean to refrain from colloquialisms or "cliches" to simply out discuss any of the brethren who may enter the discussion.

    As the various parts of this study is published, we may return here to this thread to discuss particular excerpts if any so desire, or to address questions, even to make suggestions upon the study. Thankfully, I am full aware of my own finiteness and welcome any suggestions from any when those suggestions have in their purpose to edify the children of God and to Glorify God and Jesus Christ.

    All arguments with design for improvement upon my own thoughts, without the possiblity of improvement upon Scripture being entertained, will be considered and appreciated. If these are rejected, the purpose of the rejection will be given only from a Biblical basis, non other will, or should be offered nor received.

    I hope we each can grow in the knowledge of the Grace of God and most especially that the Lord of Glory receive the praise and honor due only Him.

    Pray with me for my humble approach to this topic.

    God Bless all.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton II

    The link to the study (Introduction) is given below:

    web page

    [ June 18, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  2. KenH

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    Sounds good, Brother Dallas.

    God bless you. [​IMG]
     
  3. Frogman

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    Looking forward to slurs, slanders, liables, er, I mean comments, suggestions, and edifying discussion.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas

    Brother Dallas... Looking forward to slurs, slanders, liables... Isn't that definate proof of total depravity :D ... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]

    [ April 06, 2003, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    Sorry Brother Dallas... I blew it!... I was meaning to quote you instead of editing you... Is there a rock I can crawl under :eek: ... A cave I can hide in [​IMG] ... So you will all know I'm human just like everyone else... Forgive me Brother Dallas... Its been a long day!... Look for a PM soon... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
  5. Frogman

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    That's fine Bro.Glen, what is it we sing? "Hide me, O thou Rock of Ages" You know the place of refuge.

    Thanks for the reply.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. Frogman

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    Thought I would resurrect this in a sense, to let you brethren know I have been working on a better web-site and am currently working on the second part of the study found there.

    The link is as follows:

    web page

    In bringing this back to our remembrance I want to reopen with a statement from John Gill on the passages under consideration, I do this because I find in studying this that there is perhaps little that I can add to what Gill has said.

    [Gill]

    As for my self I think Gill is sometimes difficult to read because he usually begins by showing what he is disproving and what the scripture does not mean and then works his way to what is meant. I think here is a place that he plainly declares the meaning of this passage.

    Just so you brethren will know, I view the KJV to be inspired of God.

    I believe the Hebrew and the Greek are inspired languages and that the translation of the KJ is inspired as well. What of the seeming discrepancies? There is, I believe an explanation.

    Well, for what that is worth, the topic is the total depravity of man {though this does certainly apply to the explanation of the supposed discrepancies of the KJV}.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  7. Johnv

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    I think it's important to understand what is mean by total depravity. Some understand it to be a complete inability to do anything good. That concept is neither touted by John Calvin, nor is it biblical.

    Rather, total depravity is the complete inability of man to do anything perfect according to God's plan.
     
  8. Frogman

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    I don't have any difficulty in understanding this. This as a definition of 'total depravity' still eliminates any 'good' which man can offer to God, even if the individual is morally good.

    Agreed?

    Bro. Dallas Eaton

    Matt. 27.25
     
  9. John Gilmore

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    Total depravity means that man, in his natural state, is neither free to do good and omit evil or free to do evil and omit good. His will is in total bondage to Satan.
     
  10. tyndale1946

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    So Brethren what does Totally Depravity really mean... When God cursed Adam and Eve after they had disobeyed him and sinned?... What actually was meant by God's words and curse... Dying thou shalt die?... And if man is not Totally Depraved then how dead is he really?... Was his spirit not touched as some claim when God passed the curse and what was cursed exactly... Was the whole man Adam and Eve cursed and all their offspring until time shall be no more or just part of them?... If it was part of them then which part... Just their flesh which will also die?

    What are you going to do with passages that deal with the dead in their condition... How dead are they... How dead are you in tresspasses and in sin that you need to be quickened?... Why the quickening if there is a spark of good there?... Just how sinful and depraved is the Adam man... The Bible says we are Adam multiplied... Any you brethren want to break out your calculators and multiply the sins from Adam until this generation or until Christ comes again to see your Total Depravity.

    So how dead are we that the Son of God would leave his home in glory by his loving Fathers side to die and agonizing bloody crucified death on a roman cross 2,000 years ago?... How Totally Depraved are we and for those that don't believe it like some on here... Well you are entitled to your opinion... To each his own... but before you throw the baby out with the bath water... Be as a burean and search the scriptures... In my Bible Jesus Christ died for the ungodly and sinners.

    His people given to him from the Father before the foundation of the world to save because they were Totally Depraved... If not why did he come and die to give us a chance for Salvation?... NOT IN MY BIBLE... NOT IN MY CHURCH... NOT IN MY BELIEF!... MAN IS DEAD!... Unable to help himself... DEAD!... Unable to call on God until God changes his cold and stony heart into a heart of flesh... DEAD!... Unable to attain or obtain anything of the spiritual seeing he is spiritually discerned... DEAD... To anything GODLY!... DEAD... To anything GOOD!... DEAD... BODY... SOUL... and SPIRIT!... DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!... TOTALLY DEPRAVED!... Just like the Bible teaches it!... Just like this Primitive Baptist... BELIEVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  11. Johnv

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    I don't have any difficulty in understanding this. This as a definition of 'total depravity' still eliminates any 'good' which man can offer to God, even if the individual is morally good.

    By defenition, a man without a relationship with God will not offer any good up to God. So I'd be inclined to agree with your statement.
     
  12. Johnv

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    tyndale, the problem with your definition of total depravity is that it completely negates the fact that we in Gen1 are created in God's image, and created "very good". Our sinful nature has lead us to depravity, but if it is total, then that means that sin is as powerful as God, and I simply don't believe that. Nothing is more powerful that God, not even Satan.

    That's why I stated earlier that it's important to understand what is meant by total depravity. You understand it to be a complete inability to do anything good, but that concept is neither touted by John Calvin, nor is it biblical.

    Rather, total depravity is the complete inability of man to do anything perfect according to God's plan.
     
  13. Frogman

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    JohnV,

    I agree that men are sometimes able to possess what we in society do identify as morals. But, the Bible does teach without a doubt that man is dead in trespasses and sin.

    As I have said I believe that 1 John 3.14 is only one of the places this is taught.

    Is this passage not plain?

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt.27.25
     
  14. Johnv

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    1 John 3 has nothing to do with the Calvinistic view of Total Depravity. 1 John 3 is a discourse on how we whould love each other:

    11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
     
  15. Frogman

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    14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

    This has nothing to do with having passed from death to life?

    I do disagree with you on this.

    The passage specifically says that because we love the brethren (those in Christ) then we know we have passed from death to life, and it specifically says that whoever does not love the brethren remains in that first position which is not a total inability, but simply death.

    That is plain brother.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 27.25
     
  16. Aki

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    let's take it then - total depravity according to calvinism. when does this start? at birth.

    with this, man will be condemned. no question about that.

    but is he responsible for his own condemnation or depravity? let's take it. each one was represented by Adam in a federal manner, which got each one sin in Adam, or imputed with Adam's sin. also, each one acquired the sin nature. let's accept it then. nobody, with total depravity, would be "inclined to God".

    only let us be clear that a born child never had a choice to be condemned. he did not choose to be. and though God would still be just if He does not elect that child to salvation, let it be clear that that child was never tested with his volition to become totally depraved.
     
  17. Frogman

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    Hello Aki,

    Thanks for the post. I would bring up in answer to what I think is your question concerning the 'choice' of babies to actually commit sin, the fact that Adam and Eve had no child at the time of the fall, I believe that if they did have children, then Adam would not have been the federal head of the human race, but that the question you present would be valid. This would mean then that there would have been Adam who chose to join the woman in the sin against God, but that there would have been the child (in this case first Cain, then obviously Able) each of these would then have come to the point in their lives when they too would have been presented with the 'choice' to sin or not to sin.

    But God hath concluded all as such. The scripture I beleive answer the question you are presenting are following:

    Still Scripture teaches that man passes from the position of death unto life, and if not, then he remains (abideth) in death.

    Scripture also says in another place this distinction that Christ will judge the quick and the dead (II Tim)
    and again at

    God Bless
    bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 27.25
     
  18. Aki

    Aki
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    hi Frogman [​IMG]

    first, you should know that i realize that your intention in starting this thread is not merely to debate the non-calvinists, but to spread the Word of God.

    to get to the issue, i have a couple of comments to your response:

    1. i don't think i can readily accept the thought that should Cain and Abel had been born prior to Adam's disobedience, then those two offsprings would not be affected and will have to decide to eat of the fruit themselves when tempted. this is because it is equally valid to say that God may still impute unto the them their father's sin, since Adam remains the federal head of the human race by the time they are born.

    2. i'm not sure whether you agree or not to my first reply above, when i said that a born child was never tested of his volition to become totally depraved. nevertheless, with your reply, that point remains. each born child gets totally depraved prior to any disobedience nor even the ability to make a decision. in other words, he is not personally responsible for his own depravity.
     
  19. Frogman

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    I believe I must have misunderstood your statement earlier.

    Now let me attempt to clarify it. I believe all individuals are born totally depraved. Is this what you are saying?

    God Bless
    Bro.Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 27.25
     
  20. Aki

    Aki
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    yes, that's it. and the emphasis is that they need not have done anything to get depraved and condemned. their volition is never an issue for their condemnation.

    they were:

    1. imputed of Adam's sin/guilt by God that got them condemned; and

    2. seminally transmitted of the sin nature by their parents that got them commit personal sins.
     

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