The effectual Call

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jul 22, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,111
    Likes Received:
    206
    1 Thes. 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
    5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake
    .

    The gospel comes many times to many people "in word only" (general non-effectual call) without "power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance". Indeed, that is how it most often comes from the lips of men as most, and in some cases, all their audiance rejects it and go away as lost as when they came.

    Notice, Paul is instructing the church at Thessalonica how they can "know" their "election of God." The gospel does not come in "word only" when it is God's elect time to save them. It comes "in power' and it comes "in the Holy Ghost" and it comes "with much assurance." This last element proves it comes savingly as "assurance" cannot be given a lost person to "know....their election of God."

    This is the calling of Romans 8:30 where ALL God foreknew were ALL predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son and ALL who were predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son were ALL called and ALL justified and ALL glorified. He is talking about His "elect" as he goes on to say who shall lay anything to "God's elect" because it is Christ that "justifies THEM."

    To the Corinthians he told them to "see your calling" that "NOT MANY" wise or noble are "CALLED BY GOD" but "GOD HATH CHOSEN" those He calls and they are the offscouring of the world and He called them purposely to confound the wise and remove any grounds for glorying in anything but God's grace.

    26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

    If this is not an effectual call then how can Paul say that God does not call "many" who are of a certain class???
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,378
    Likes Received:
    728
    2 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

    13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
     
  3. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for starting the thread. There is no more important issue than being secure and 100% sure of ones salvation, which is the result of the effectual call. The power of the Holy Spirit in a Christian testifies to the individual the he or she is saved.

    Scripture gives us many signs of salvation. One has been discussed at length as of late, Romans 6-8. If there is no internal struggle, there is no salvation in the first place. John, in his books 1, 2, and 3 uses the phrase many times "I write this that you might know you are saved" if we love our fellow Christian, if we have the Spirit of Christ in us, etc. He also gives signs of those not saved, such as "if we say we have no sin..............."

    The reason your opponents ignore the effectual call verses is the same reason they ignore the election verses, and maybe they do not even realize it. What they are doing in essence is putting God on a level of half sovereignty level so they have control of their destiny, even to the point of making Holy decisions in a totally depraved, fallen state.

    Another point made very well by Biblicist is that a one time walking away from a call does not prove irresistible grace is false. If one is elect, they will obtain salvation, maybe not the first, second or third time, but one can be certain it will happen.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Think everyone here would recognize that Jesus seeks and saves, not man.

    I can persuade, cajole and threaten, but unless Jesus saves, it is a moot point. Salvation is of the Lord.

    Anything less puts man in charge of his salvation, man controlling eternal life. I often joke of the pelagian/semi-pelagian heresy "If it's going to be, it's up to me". Sadly, for some, it seems not a joke.

    Thanks for reminding us in this thread of that special invisible inward work of the holy Spirit of God that brings us to salvation. It is 100% of God and for that I am eternally thankful.

    I make a really great sinner, but I'm a lousy savior. :thumbsup:
     
  5. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    0
     
    #5 Inspector Javert, Jul 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2013
  6. SovereignMercy

    SovereignMercy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    0
    The castle of the human heart,
    Strong in its native sin,
    Is guarded well in every part,
    By him who dwells within.

    For Satan there in arms resides,
    And calls the place his own;
    With care against assaults provides,
    And rules as on a throne.

    Each traitor thought, on him as chief,
    In blind obedience waits;
    And pride, self-will, and unbelief,
    Are posted at the gates.

    Thus Satan for a season reigns,
    And keeps his goods in peace;
    The soul is pleas’d to wear his chains,
    Nor wishes a release.

    But Jesus, stronger far than he,
    In His appointed hour,
    Appears to set His people free
    From the usurper’s pow’r.

    “This heart I bought with blood,” He says,
    “And now it shall be mine;”
    His voice the strong one arm’d dismays,
    He knows he must resign.

    In spite of unbelief and pride,
    And self, and Satan’s art,
    The gates of brass fly open wide,
    And Jesus wins the heart.

    The rebel soul that once withstood
    The Saviour’s kindest call,
    Rejoices now, by grace subdu’d,
    To serve Him with her all.

    John Newton
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,915
    Likes Received:
    94
    I usually dont like poems & such ....but I read it anyway. Normally I would just blow this off but JOHN NEWTON is a totally different story. Somehow he reaches me.

    Thanks :thumbsup:
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,915
    Likes Received:
    94
    Bob....here is my experience with that bit, "Managers tell you that right before they send you to do an impossible task"....IE its a prologue to chaos.:tonofbricks:
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,111
    Likes Received:
    206
     
  10. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,111
    Likes Received:
    206
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,189
    Likes Received:
    611
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,111
    Likes Received:
    206
     
  14. SovereignMercy

    SovereignMercy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bib, do you think that you can logically argue with these folks and get them to change their views? If so, do you really believe in total depravity?

    And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

    Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.
     
  15. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    You must believe that the non-Cals on this thread are not saved and do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit if you believe they are totally depraved and cannot understand spiritual truths.

    Is that what you are implying here?

    I will give you this though, it is nice to see a consistent Calvinist. For if Total Depravity is true, then it is useless to debate with the lost.
     
  16. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    185
    No doubt Paul did a lot of "debating" in the local synagogs just as Christ spoke openly and plainly to the religious folk of His day.

    When Lazarus was dead to the world (Christ said he was sleeping) was he responsive to any human voice?

    What raised Lazarus?

    What raises the dead heart?

    The Word of God.

    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
    12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

    When the Father lays claim to a dead human, that dead human will respond.
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, I agree. The scriptures do not teach Total Inability, they teach the DEAD can hear.

    Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Jesus said the hour is coming and "now is" when THE DEAD shall hear his voice, and those that hear SHALL (future tense) live.

    This is clearly speaking of spiritual death, not physical, as Jesus speaks of physical death several verses later.

    Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Note the differences here from verse 25;

    1- Jesus says the hour is coming. This is a future event, this is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus does not say "and now is" as he said in vs. 25. People were presently believing when Jesus preached the gospel and were being made spiritually alive at the present time, this is what Jesus is speaking of in verse 25.

    2- Jesus does not say "the dead" shall hear in vs. 28, he says "all that are in the graves". This is because Jesus never calls the dead in Christ "dead" but "the living"

    Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all physically dead when Jesus said this, but Jesus called them "the living" because they were believers and their sins were forgiven. They were no longer dead in trespasses and sins.

    Likewise, in the resurrection of the physical dead there will be many believers, therefore Jesus did not call these persons "the dead" in John 5:28, but speaks of "all that are in the graves". This applies to both believers and unbelievers who have died and have been buried. Those that believed in their lifetime will be raised to the "resurrection of life", unbelievers will be raised to the "resurrection of damnation".

    So, Jhn 5:25 is speaking of spiritual death, while Jhn 5:28 is speaking of physical death.

    Jesus said the spiritually dead can hear his voice NOW, and those that hear shall live.

    John 5:25 refutes Total Inability.
     
  18. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Be careful NOT to "question salvation" of folks simply because they disagree with your interpretation/understanding of the Word.

    Proclaim biblical truth and let GOD work in hearts. He does so in regenerated the lost and He does so the illuminating the redeemed.
     
  19. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,255
    Likes Received:
    185
    24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
    28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
    I put John 5 above so that folks can look for their self.


    Amazing, Winman actually does state that ONLY those saved will hear the voice - live.

    Then draws the distinction between those saved and those lost.

    Then actually states that John 5 refutes total inability!

    Can anyone show just how John 5 doesn't show just how totally unable are the dead without Christ, both while they live and when they are physically dead?
     
  20. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just explained this to you.

    Does Jesus say "the living" shall hear his voice in John 5:25? NO, he said "the dead". This is speaking of the spiritually dead. It doesn't say God has to make them alive to be able to hear, it says that if they hear they "shall live" which means following and as a result of hearing Jesus's words.

    This is what Paul shows in Romans 10:14;

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    There is no other verse in scripture that so directly addresses the question "and how shall they believe in him" than Romans 10:14, speaking of Jesus.

    Does Paul ask HOW they shall believe in him unless they have been supernaturally regenerated? NO, and Paul never says that anywhere in all the scriptures.

    No, Paul simply implies they must HEAR of Jesus.

    Does Paul then ask HOW shall they HEAR unless they have been supernaturally regenerated? NO, Paul asks how shall they hear without a preacher. Does that sound like magic to you?

    No, Paul implies here that men cannot believe in Jesus unless they HEAR of him, and that they cannot HEAR unless there be a PREACHER that goes and preaches the word of God to them.

    Men have the ability to believe, but no man can believe what he does not know or has not heard. It is that simple!

    Calvinism adds this necessity to be supernaturally regenerated to be willing to hear and to be able to believe when the scriptures say no such thing. You cannot show a single verse that supports this necessity to be regenerated to believe.

    You should listen to the word of God and not the false doctrines of men.
     
    #20 Winman, Aug 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2013
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...