The Egyptians' Cattle

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Jan 31, 2012.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    In Exodus 9:6 we are told that "...all of the cattle of Egypt died...."

    Then, in Exodus 12:29, we are told that one of the results of the death angel's coming upon the Egyptians was that all of the firstborn of their cattle were smitten.

    If all the Egyptians' cattle were already dead in Chapter 9, how could there be any firstborn of their cattle be around to be smitten in Chapter 12?
     
  2. kyredneck

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    And Jehovah shall make a distinction between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt; and there shall nothing die of all that belongeth to the children of Israel. Ex 9:4

    Had to come from the Israelites' cattle, imo.
     
  3. Amy.G

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    First of all, I have a pet peeve about the "death angel". The bible doesn't say a death angel passed through Egypt, but it was the LORD Himself. I can't even find a reference to a "death angel".

    Ex 12:12 ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.


    Regarding the other question about Egypt not having any livestock left to kill, we don't know much time had elapsed between the 1st killing of the livestock and the killing of the firstborn. It could have been months. I think we just assume that the plagues occurred rapidly one after the other, but that is not likely.
     
  4. Mark_13

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    In Chapter 9 it says that none of the Hebrew livestock were killed, and in Chapter 12 it doesn't identify the cattle whose firstborn were killed as specifically belonging to the Egyptians. So if the firstborn of Hebrew cattle were killed that is only what was to be stipulated in the Levitical law only a short time later.

    But actually only a few verses after the Egyptian livestock are killed in Chapter 9 it says the following:

    (Exo 9:18-20) "Behold, about this time tomorrow, I will send a very heavy hail, such as has not been in Egypt from the day it was founded until now. Now therefore send, bring your livestock and whatever you have in the field to safety. Every man and beast that is found in the field and is not brought home, when the hail comes down on them, will die."'" The one among the servants of Pharaoh who feared the word of the LORD made his servants and his livestock flee into the houses;

    So, how could they have livestock after God killed them all in v. 6. Only solution I have at the moment is that is that the Egyptians sort of claimed Hebrew livestock along with the Hebrews as their own.
     
  5. Mark_13

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    I was reading through those chapters and I noticed it said,

    (Exo 9:27-28) Then Pharaoh sent for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, "I have sinned this time; the LORD is the righteous one, and I and my people are the wicked ones. Make supplication to the LORD, for there has been enough of God's thunder and hail; and I will let you go, and you shall stay no longer."

    (Exo 9:34-10:1) But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,

    I notice in this forum there is a group calling themselves "Armenians" and they say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart only after Pharaoh hardened his heart on his own by his own free will. Which one is true, the passage above or the Armenians.
     
    #5 Mark_13, Jan 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2012
  6. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Hint: they are different Hebrew words.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    And Jehovah doth this thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt die, and of the cattle of the sons of Israel not one hath died; Ex 9:6 YLT

    And it cometh to pass, at midnight, that Jehovah hath smitten every first-born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh who is sitting on his throne, unto the first-born of the captive who is in the prison-house, and every first-born of beasts. Ex 12:29 YLT
     
  8. Gina B

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    I just read it in the KJV and in Exodus 9, it uses the word "cattle." In Exodus 12, the word "beast" is used.

    In Hebrew, the word used in chapter 9 to describe the type of animal is different from the word used in chapter 12.

    In the CJB, it says this for verse 9: 3 the hand of ADONAI is on your livestock in the field - on the horses, donkeys, camels, cattle and flocks -and will make them suffer a devastating illness.

    It says this for chapter 12: 12 For that night, I will pass through the land of Egypt and kill all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both men and animals; and I will execute judgment against all the gods of Egypt; I am ADONAI.

    In the Reina-Valera, here is verse 9 (I will put the words in bold)
    He aquí la mano de Jehová será sobre tus ganados que están en el campo, caballos, asnos, camellos, vacas y ovejas, con pestilencia gravísima:

    In chapter 12, it says this:
    Pues yo pasaré aquella noche por la tierra de Egipto, y heriré á todo primogénito en la tierra de Egipto, así en los hombres como en las bestias: y haré juicios en todos los dioses de Egipto. YO JEHOVA.

    From the various translations I'm looking at, none so far are using "cattle" twice. The cattle were struck with a grave illness.

    In Hebrew, the word used in chapter 9 in different than the one used in chapter 12. It appears that the word used in chapter 12, when put together with everywhere else the same one is used, usually is a more general term and can be associated with any type of animal (looks like it could even refer to birds but I'm not sure!) while it seems that the Hebrew word that is used in chapter 9 is more specific to larger like camels and horses.

    I just looked up the verses on a site that gives you multiple translations all at once and I do see where some do use the same word in both chapters.

    The only thing that tells me is that ones that use the same word are doing a poor job of translation and not only is that careless, it's dangerous and very eye opening. We do have to be careful about who we trust when it comes to being able to consider a translation trust-worthy. I'd be afraid to sit under a teacher that hasn't studied languages and doesn't have a pretty firm grasp for the languages the manuscripts were written in. Yikes!
     
  9. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Well it's right there in the margin of the Geneva Bible: "The Angel sent of God to kill the first borne"

    Thus:

    Founders Ministries curriculum: http://www.founders.org/ss/explore/032110.htm


    ARBCA curriculum: http://www.arbca.com/image/pdf/Carol_Swanson_Sunday_School_Lessons.pdf


    John Piper, What Jesus Demands, p. 346: http://cdn.desiringgod.org/pdf/books_bwjd/books_bwjd.pdf

    etc.
     
  10. beameup

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    Or then you could just use the AV with Strong's numbers linked right in the text
    as in the Blue Letter (online) Bible.
     
  11. Amy.G

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