The Elect and the Gospel

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Old_School_Baptist, Feb 23, 2003.

  1. Old_School_Baptist

    Old_School_Baptist
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    While reading some of the posts in this forum, I noticed some of those wearing the name "Primitive Baptist" are speaking against the Old Line Primitive Baptists and our view concerning the elect and the Gospel. We do not believe all the elect will hear the Gospel.

    1. If one believes all the elect will hear the Gospel, what about infants and those who are, for one reason or another, unable to hear the Gospel?

    2. These, I am sure, are "exceptional cases." However, the Bible only teaches one way of salvation. I challenge anyone to show me in the Scriptures where it teaches that God saves the majority of His people the "normal" way, and that He saves the rest in an "exceptional" way.
     
  2. Yelsew

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    I'm not arguing with you yet, I just want to know before we start, your definition of how God saves us.
     
  3. romanbear

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    Hi old School Baptist; [​IMG]
    Please tell us just how we are saved. Do we choose Him or, does He choose us? How many elect are there? How are we elected or, are we elected because we first believe or because we are made to believe? Do we have to be elected to be saved?.if so why?
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    Welcome to the BB... Old School... There are a few of your brethren on here... I'm Old School... Old Line myself... And just wanted to let you know there are other PBs on here... Btw Yelsew and Romanbear have already been given the answers to these questions time and time again... I guess they want to see if you will answer them any differently?... Will pipe in if I have anything to add... I will let you address their questions... Brother Glen Primitive Baptist Old Schooler Old Liner From San Diego [​IMG]
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Tyndale, you have just preconditioned the response to my question to Old_School_Baptist. You scream bloody murder when others do that to you, then you employ the same tactic. It is no wonder that there will never be agreement amongst Christians.
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    Yelsew I did not as he will answer the question as he understand it... I did not precondition him to nothing... He is among my brethren and I know the basis of his answer as he is of my belief but I don't know word for word how he will answer. He doesn't need me to answer for him and I won't until he answers... Then I may add some or just let it stand as is... All depends if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound but being a PB for 35 years I know the tune he will play!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  7. romanbear

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    Hi tyndale;
    Are all primitive baptist, Calvinist? Are you really sure of that or do you know this guy?
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  8. Frogman

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    One has to but read the post of the brother to know his view of how we are saved. Sovereign Grace is a beautiful thing.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  9. Yelsew

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    Are you presuming that is what Old_School_Baptist meant with the opening post of this topic? Because it simply is not stated as such.
     
  10. Old_School_Baptist

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    Jesus Christ saved His people 2,000 years ago. It is a finished work, and objective fact. There is a salvation in the Gospel, but not eternal. That was acomplished by the blood of Christ. Old Liners believe that Noah's ark was an example and shadow of the church. The Bible teaches that baptism saves us in the same way the ark saved the eight souls aboard the ark. It saved them from destruction (not eternal) and from the present evil world in which they lived. In like manner, repentance and baptism save us from "this present evil world" (Acts 2), not from hell. The word of God tells the elect to come out from among the world and be a separate people. In doing so, the child of God saves himself from the wicked and untoward generation in which he may live during any generation. The knowledge of the Gospel delivers (saves), but not for heaven (Proverbs 11:9). If all the elect will hear the Gospel, explain why Jesus told the Jewish leaders that they did not enter into the kingdom of heaven themselves and forbade those who WOULD enter in, from doing so. I believe there are children of God bound in the false religion of Islam and would enter into the kingdom of heaven, but their leaders will not suffer the preaching of the gospel in their land.

    "Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." [I Thessalonians 2:16]

    I do not believe that this is referring to eternal salvation, but temporal salvation, being "saved by the Gospel," mainly because I do not believe it is in the hands of any man to keep another man out of heaven. There is a condition for being saved by the Gospel, and that is keeping it in memory [I Corinthians 15:1-3]. Why do you think there are so many exhortations in the word of God to take heed to the doctrine?

    "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." [I Timothy 4:16]

    If "saved" always means eternal salvation, what becomes of this? Is our eternal salvation dependent upon the perseverance of our pastors? Certainly not! There are some of God's children whose faith has been overthrown by false doctrine, but "the Lord knoweth them that are His" [II Timothy 2:18, 19].
     
  11. tyndale1946

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    [​IMG] AMEN! [​IMG] ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  12. Frogman

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    Bro. Old_School_Baptist and Bro. Glen,

    First, let me say I am glad to read this post, this is the kind of information I am digging for in my reading (Baptist History Forum).

    Bro. Glen knows I am Missionary Baptist, now you know :D I can see the points you are making, but still would like to make a few comments.

    I agree fully and completely with this statement.

    Because I agree with your first statement I can see the meaning of this statement, i.e if salvation is in the finished work of Christ, the "Gospel" does not produce it, it is produced through that eternal work. My only contention here would be that the Gospel awakens the elect concerning their position.

    I will have to study this point further. We believe the ark of Noah is typifying Christ and the believer is "in Christ" as Noah was in the ark. And each were placed there by God.

    Here is a mouth full. We believe baptism is but a picture of our death and resurrection in Christ, and that this alone provides us entrance into the church. We believe (or perhaps I should say I believe) that baptism, repentance etc. do not, as you say, save us eternally, this is true because it is the blood of Jesus that has saved his people. Then, baptism and repentance do seperate the believer from the world and place him/her into the church body whereby, if continuing in the Spirit, this person is kept from the "destruction" of this world, so to speak. Repentance is the working of the Spirit that has humbled the spirit of man and produces from the heart a Godly sorrow, one who repents not, is one, not of the elect, their following of Christ, profession and all pertaining to this is otherwise "bunk."

    Near to the same as the above example as Baptism and Repentance etc. One is seperated from among those of the world by their baptism, whereby they enter into the body; the knowledge of the Gospel has no power alone to deliver to any degree, but it is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1.16), whereby we mean final future deliverance, in this world, the believer stands justified because of his/her position in Christ;

    In doing so, the child of God saves himself from the wicked and untoward generation in which he may live during any generation.

    This still, is being worked through the Spirit in the believer, who if rebelling against, finds themselves such as Paul described; 'It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.' (Don't mean to be so particular, but I see in scripture and in the present world where men have and are living by the Spirit, but still are subject to persecution and death.

    We differ here also brother. Jesus was speaking to 'Jewish leaders' and He preached, as did John, repentance because the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. It was present, because the King was present with them. This is something I must study further myself, but in scripture I find the following:

    </font>
    • The Family of God</font>
    • The Kingdom of God</font>
    • The Kingdom of Heaven</font>
    • The Church (which is the bride).</font>
    For now, I can say I don't believe Jesus was speaking of salvation (as you know by now, these things are affected by your view of the end-times and these things are sufficient to establish what my view is, I believe).

    I agree, but 'the word of God is not Bound' ( II Tim. 2.9). The nation of Bhutan is a Bhuddist kingdom, forbidden any religion except Bhuddism and Hinduism, yet there are brethren from India crossing the borders and preaching the Gospel, this is worked also by the Spirit. Though a nation is not open, it is Christ that openeth and no man can shut and shuts and no man can open.


    Nor do I believe one can keep another out of heaven, nor can one deliver any into heaven that are not of the elect.

    I think the condition placed is placed on us and determines our degree of affliction in this world, not as to whether the Gospel will save or not, nor whether we should be saved. I don't believe any of the elect shall fail to be saved. To continue in the doctrine is to be safe from the afflictions of this world, but is not equated to the final deliverance, this was worked in Christ. Continuing faithfully in the doctrine will provide for us a better testimony in this world and a better life experience. (Proverbs 14.25).


    To be saved is a once and for all realization. It speaks of final eternal deliverance. Justification is worked in Christ, whereby God the Father has pronounced the elect, justified in His Blood. But, to follow a false doctrine, man must justify this from his own logic, reasoning and understanding, this departs from the 'faith once delivered to the saints.' This is not justifiable, except among men. I do believe not all who profess are saved, thus, "the Lord knoweth them that are his" stands, but in view of final deliverance when the hearts of men will be revealed.

    Thanks for the post and the insight. This will give me valueable meat to chew on and will serve to direct my studies. As I said above, these questions were what I had, I just didn't know how to articulate them. Your post has been of great use to me to help me to see in a better light some of the contentions among brethren. As you and Bro. Glen both would well know, matters of belief are not simply formulated, but all must be founded from scripture and none can teach any other what is truth, apart from the Spirit teaching and leading into truth, man will not find it, though he were saved. We are too emotionally charged creatures and must take care that we are not being caught up in an emotional plea as to what is truth, but must rely upon that which is Spirit, I believe herein lies the truth.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas

    [ February 25, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    God's infinite grace is a beautiful reality to those who believe. [John 3:16] To those who remain in unbelief it is going to be a haunting experience in eternity. [John 3:18b; John 5:40; Acts 7:51] These verses clearly picture the fact that "Irresistible Grace" is a concept that some people should not have swallowed, spiritually speaking.
     
  14. Primitive Baptist

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    Baptist Board:

    "Save yourselves" by "keeping in memory" that this brother is an OLD LINE (so-called) "Primiti Baptist. He is not an OLD SCHOOL PRIMITIVE BAPTIST because we, the original Primitive Baptists do not believe this way.

    God will call ALL His elect (All that the Father giveth me SHALL come to me... John 6:37) and they SHALL walk in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. That is Primitive Baptist doctrine if any of you are actually interested.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    Old School Baptist,

    You have once again confirmed the idea that Calvinism has many composite views within the whole scheme of Augustinian theology. Now we are told that some who enter Heaven will not be called by God. I agree with you that children who die before accepting Christ will go to Heaven. If God did not want them there, He would not have given them entrance to felicity above. In this case they were called by Him and elected to everlasting life, I would think.

    King David's son from Bathsheba went to Heaven and David said, in effect, 'He cannot come to me, but I will go to be with him.'

    Seriously, according to your view are there any others that might be elected to Heaven but did not or will not receive His call?
     
  16. Frogman

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    Brethren,
    I believe hearing is by the Word of God, I believe those in question can and do hear the Word by the Spirit. Also, where man preaches the Gospel, it must be by the Spirit, or it won't be heard either.

    I also would ask you if you can read something and not 'hear' such as reading Scripture and having the Spirit proclaim it to you.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  17. Yelsew

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    That is "hearing" in the biblical sense of the word!

    "Hearing", in the biblical sense, is using any or all of the human senses to provide "knowledge" to the spirit whereby we humans can be convicted by the Holy Spirit, which causes us to make choices.

    The Holy Spirit has nothing with which to convict us if the knowledge is not in or available to our spirit. Unless we are convicted based upon the knowledge we have, what charges are brought against us?

    Because man inherited from Adam and Eve, that which within us determines good from evil, we need knowledge of what we do that is good and evil in order to stand convicted by the Holy Spirit. We come about that knowledge by experience, and by "hearing", that is by taking in knowledge via our senses of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, and in speaking. Speaking because it is what comes from the heart that is spoken that reveals what is in us good or evil.

    [ February 27, 2003, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
  18. Old_School_Baptist

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    Brethren,

    The Scriptures testify of the fact that at least some infants are saved such as the son of David and Jeremiah 31:15-17. I ask, how? The Scriptures only teach one way of salvation, the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There is no other way, and instead of treating infants as an extraordinary case, the Scriptures treat them quite ordinarily. You, my brother, have two ways of salvation. If they are guaranteed heaven because they never had the chance to hear, then you must believe the same thing about the heathen. Therefore, they would be better off if no one ever preached to them. That way they would not have the chance to reject it and damn themselves.

    But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. - Matt 23:13

    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! -Matthew 23-37

    Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. - Luke 11:52

    Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. - 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16

    I believe there are some of the elect who are being hindered in countries dominated by false religions from entering into the kingdom of heaven (the church). Primitive Baptists do believe that there is a salvation in the Gospel IF you keep in memory (hold fast) what was preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:16). How many times does Paul exhort the bethren to "hold fast?" Many times. I do not believe that a man with all the power in heaven and earth has he ability to keep another man out of heaven. However, you must concede that that is the case in the abve verses. All the elect will be called by God, but they all will not be called by the preaching of the Gospel. Are you willing to say that all the Native Americans who lived in this country for thousands of years were all damned??? Is God so weak? Is He bound to the letter and cannot save beyond evangelism? The God of the Bible asks the question, "Is my arm so short that I cannot save?" God suffered all nations to walk in their own ways, that is, without the law and its ordinances? Did they all go to hell? No, and I have biblical proof that they didn't.

    "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Romans 2:14-15)

    Notice, the law is written on their hearts. This can never be said of a reprobate.

    "Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

    What unicircumcision would be Paul referring to in this passage than those a few verses before who have not the external means of the law? Look at Cornelius. He was described as a "devout man," one who "feared God," one who went up to Jerusalem to worship, and one whose prayers were heard of God. That certainly is not an unregenerate man. Romans 10:18 says here is "no fear of God before their eyes," but Cornelius feared God. He did not hear the Gospel till Peter went and preached to him. All those years that God only dealt with the Jews, it says, "Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness."

    "But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest." (Mark 9:36-38)

    You see, there are sheep who have no shepherd. They are ignorant and they will be devoured by the wolves without a shepherd. That is why we are to pray. Primitive Baptists are not fatalists. People want to accuse Primitive Baptists of hindering the Gospel, but the only hinderance is fatalism that says they will all hear it regardless of what we do now. We have no resonsibility. Nothing will be any different than what it has been, is now, or will be. That is NOT what Primitive Baptists believe!!! We believe that if we are negligent to pray and preach, some of the sheep will go without a shepherd and will perish (not eternally). However, I believe there are many who have been born of God's Spirit among those destitute of the Gospel who walk in a Godly way because of the law written in their hearts. Just like the Jews, most of them would put us to shame because we have the external means of it, and they do not. If they were to hear the gospel, it surely would result in faith. However, look at all the perverted Gospels out there. Can you honestly say that all Romans Catholics are going to hell? That means billions will die and go to hell. However, all of God's children in a sense come to repentance as He is revealed to them, some only through the light of creation and providence. Others do because they are blessed to hear the gospel. Those in the Old Testament desired to hear the things we are hearing, but were not able. There are things revealed in the Gospel that were kept seret from the foundation of the world. Does that mean all the Old Testament saints died and went to hell? I hardly think so. My question, do you preach the same Gospel as Calvinists? Or Calvinists, do you preach the same Gospel as Arminians? Of course the answer is no. But, if all the elect will hear the Gospel, what about all those corrupted by Arminianism? And if they are preaching the Gospel, I ask, why do you not unionize wth them, then?
     
  19. Frogman

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    Brother,

    I have printed out your last post for further study. My initial reading it appears to have internal contradictions. After study, I will reply. God Bless.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  20. absturzen

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    Hi All,

    Some fun history stuff.

    The 1644 Baptist Confession didn't address the issue of people being incapable of receiving the external call (the call of the gospel message). It focused on the preaching the Gospel.

    "That Christ Jesus by His death did bring fourth salvation and reconciliation only for the 1 elect, which were those which God the Father gave Him; and that the Gospel which is to be preached to all men as the ground of faith, is, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the ever blessed God, filled with the perfection of all heavenly and spiritual excellencies, and that salvation is only and alone to be had through the believing in His name," XXI.,The
    CONFESSION OF FAITH Of those CHURCHES which are
    commonly (though falsely) called Anabaptists. (1644 London Baptist Confession)

    Now, the more popular confession of 1689 was the Baptist adaptation of the Westminster Confession Which both specifically addressed infants and people incapable of receiving the gospel message. (fyi: many internet copies removed the word "elect" out of the follow passage);

    "Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." Chap 10, Of Effectual Calling, 1689 London Confession of Faith

    The key part of this passage is that "ANY ELECT person incapable of being outwardly called is saved."

    This doesn't ignore Rom 10:13-15 or 1 Cor 1:20-21 or 2 Timothy 4:1-7 or Matthew 28:18-20. But it does keep us mindful that God's Will will be done.


    Steve [​IMG]

    [ March 07, 2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: absturzen ]
     

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