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The Elect --- Question 1

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Crabtownboy, Nov 17, 2009.

  1. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    If the elect can sin then they can commit murder.

     
  2. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
     
  3. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Then, according to your scripture, the elect can loose their salvation. Right?
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    It's God's. How does it read to you?
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I don't see that as being more consistent. If anything it is less. My wife and I can choose to have a child or not, but once she is pregnant, we cannot undo the decision. Same with shooting and killing someone. I can choose to do that, but I cannot undo the decision after it has been done.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe its your choice that is the cause of the creation of a child?
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Are you suggesting in some way David is not with God at this moment?
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Are you familiar with analogies? :) The conceiving of a child is an analogy showing once a decision has been made, it does not logically follow it can be undone.
     
  9. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I was expanding the analogy to something else.
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Actually a very good observation. I guess you would call these folks "one point Calvinists". Would it be appropriate to address them as such?
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    There are some who believe that salvation is simply intellectual assent to the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Not only that but He has to have a good eraser and a big bottle of ink just to update the Book of Life!:laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  13. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I believe all men's names were written in the book of life, that it was God's intention that all be saved. However, when one does not believe, their name is blotted out of the book of life. We do not see men's names added to the book of life, only blotted out.

    In Romans 11 Paul shows that a Jew (who was the chosen and elect) can be broken off by unbelief, but if he repents and believes can be graffed back in again.

    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


    The Jews were the chosen, the elect. But those who did not believe were broken off this natural olive tree. But if they repent and believe they can be graffed back in AGAIN as the scriptures say.

    This shows some misunderstand who the elect are. The elect are those who believe. It is not fixed as I just showed in Romans 11. A person who is unbelieveing today is non-elect. Tomorrow if they believe they become the elect.
     
  14. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Winman you have a total misconception of election. Your concept of God is that He is unable to keep those who belong to Him. Those for whom He endured the incarnation and for whom He died. This is truly sad!

    Same goes for crabtownboy! Very sad!
     
  16. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Do you say that any sin the elect commits is already forgiven?
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You can ascertain what the elect are capable of doing by everything they're told NOT to do in the Book.
     
  18. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Do you know anyone who succeeds in this?
     
  19. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    If you believe that man's autonomous will determines his salvation AND that God knows the future in eternity, then you have God intending to do something that could never happen and He knew this. Why do so many want to load God full of meaningless "intentions" that He knew could never and would never materialize?

    I agree with this. The Book of Life contains the names of everyone who is "alive." One who dies in his sins and faces the second death is no longer "alive" and is blotted out of the Book of Life.

    Interesting that you used a passage about an olive tree analogy to support your argument about the Book of Life. You could have used Exodus 32:32-33, Deuteronomy 29:20, Philippians 4:3, Revelation 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 20:15, 21:27, and 22:19.

    If you are using the olive tree analogy to support your view of the Book of Life, doesn't your statement about grafting back in contradict your statement about names being only blotted from the Book of Life?

    Anyway, I believe that the olive tree analogy is speaking more to nations and ethnicities as a whole rather than individuals.

    It is true that the nation of Israel was God's elect nation. God also has an election according to grace.

    Is every Jew or every citizen of the nation of Israel going to become a believer? Maybe there is a new definition for Israel:

    Here, part of the elect are the Gentile believers. These are the Gentiles who are "the vessels of mercy, which [God] had afore prepared unto glory." These are the ones whom God has called "of [from] the Jews" and "of [from] the Gentiles." Obviously there is no other way to interpret this call other than it being the effectual call as opposed to the general call. The ones whom God called are the ones He afore prepared unto glory. See Romans 8:28-30 where the ones "called" are also the ones predestinated for sanctification, justified, and glorified.

    Here we see that the believing remnant of the nation of Israel is actually what God considers Israel. He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness. The "work" that is "cut short" is the actual Israel (the believers) from the physical seed of Abraham. These are the Jewish believers, and they are God's finished work of Israel.

    Notice all the phrases about God doing things here. God afore prepared the vessels of mercy unto glory. God called people from the Jews and from the Gentiles. God will finish the work. God will cut it short in righteousness. God will make the work short. God will leave a seed.

    Notice also yet another proof of "Total Depravity" in verse 29. Unless God had reserved a seed, the whole nation of Israel would be like Sodom and Gomorrah!

    Paul says emphatically that God has not cast away His people (Israelites). How has He not cast them away? He was just talking about the elect from the Gentiles. Now, he defines how God has not cast away His people Israel. He has not cast them (Israel) away in that He has reserved a remnant from Israel according to the same election of grace as He called people from the Gentiles.

    Paul said that God reserved the seven thousand. The reason that they did not bow to Baal as the rest of the nation did was because God reserved them that way. Otherwise, they would have been like the rest. This is the same as the fact that if God had not left a seed, the whole nation would be like Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Verse 7 shows what the elect concerning Israel is. First, there is the whole nation of Israel. From this nation there is (1) "the election," and (2) "the rest." Those who say that "the elect" concerning Israel is always the nation as a whole are sincerely wrong.

    Notice also that the "rest" were "blinded." Notice that this blindness is a fulfillment of Scripture that God blinded them. Obviously, like Pharaoh, God left them to their own depraved devices. As for the "election," God reserved them. This is a reference to 1 Kings 19:18:

    The word left there (shâ'ar) is a strong word denoting that the subject is "swelling" or shaping the object in form. The word in the same form is also found in Zephaniah 3:12.

    The word for remnant is another form of the word: she'êrîyth.


    continued...
     
    #39 AresMan, Nov 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2009
  20. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    continued from above...


    You simply cannot ignore the power of these passages! God is sovereign in bringing about the salvation of His elect. Those who are not elect are simply left to their own devices, which make them reject salvation.

    God sends strong delusion upon the non-elect so that they continue in their devices. For the elect, God chose them from the beginning unto salvation. Whereunto He called [them] by [the] gospel to the obtaining of the glory.

    Of course they are! Now, are people elect because they believe or do they believe because they are elect? Methinks you are misunderstanding the elect.

    You cannot use the olive tree analogy speaking of nations to prove your idea of individual election.

    If election is "foreknown," (1 Peter 1:2) "before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4), and "from the beginning" (2 Thessalonians 2:13), then how can it not be "fixed" from God's perspective? If election is "in eternity past" then why would you say that one "becomes" elect upon faith? Election is in eternity and "before" one is saved. It is God's choice whereby at some point in the person's life, God will call him, regenerate him, give him faith, and justify him.
     
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