The Elect --- Question 1

No! Absolutely not!

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid. Ro 6

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10:31..... and he's referring to the elect in this time world, not the unregenerate! Many are quick to think of His punishments only in the eternal sense when in fact there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, in the eternal realm. But He can, and does, turn His own over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh in this time realm that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

Yes! Yes! Yes!

 

==There is not a shred of Biblical evidence to back up that belief. It is an absolute misunderstanding of Rev. 13:8/17:8. Neither verse states, or implies, that everyone's name was at one time written in the Lamb's Book of Life. In fact, if you wish to get technical, the implication is that they were not.

==No place in the New Testament are we told that names will be or might be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. Names were either in there from the foundation of the world, or they were not.

==The problem you have here is that Paul is not talking about individuals. Clearly not all Jews have rejected Christ (Rom 11:5).

==That makes the Biblical teaching of election meaningless. It puts election in man's hands. God has not rejected Israel and He will always have a remnant from among the nation. The grafting back in of Israel will occur when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Rom 11:25-32).

==Wrong. The Bible teaches, the Lord Jesus Himself teaches, that those the Father gives Him (elect) will come to Him and receive eternal life (Jn 6:37-39, 17:2). They believe in Him because they are His sheep (Jn 10:26-28). They were chosen in Christ before the earth was created (Eph 1:3-14). Election was done in eternity past, if we can use such a phrase, it is not done in the present. In time we see the results of election. For example, in Romans 8:29-30 we see that God forknew and predestined people before He called and justified them (ie...before they believed).

The idea that a person is not elect today and is elect tomorrow makes a great deal of sense from a human point of view. The problem is that it does not make Biblical sense. Yes, the Bible calls believers the elect. Why? Because by coming to Christ they show that they were given to Him (elected) by the Father before the foundation of the world. The elect are the elect, and they will come to Christ. Those who are not elect will remain in their sin, unbelief, and rejection.

 

==In a sense, yes. After all, the Bible teaches that through the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ all believers are "perfect for all time" (Heb 10:14). On the other hand, God treats Christians as His children and expects them (us) to repent and confess our sins daily (1Jn 1:9, Ps 32:3-5, Pr 28:13). Sin in the believer's life can and will result in discipline. What kind? Unanswered prayer, spiritual weakness, physical sickness, early death (Ps 66:18, 1Cor 11:30-32).

Having said all of that however, we need to be very careful to remind ourselves that those who practice any sin prove themselves to be lost (1Jn 3:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, etc). Salvation results in a totally changed life. While believers may sin, and sin badly, a true believer will not remain in unrepentant sin. True believers who fall into sin will judge themselves and repent or God will judge them. A person who lives in sin and experiences no discipline or conviction is probably not saved.

 

Your logical conclusions always have an illogical bent in them!:BangHead::BangHead:

 

That is what Winman has been preaching for months!

 

I guess consistency is in the eye of the beholder, Web.

I just find it inconsistent on the part of non-Cal Baptists who free will trumps God's desires in the matter of salvation, but God's will trumps their free will in the matter of security.

Free will, it seems, is not always free.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

My analogies showed how it is not inconsistent. It's a inconsistent to state man's free will trumps God's desire in regards to salvation, since it is God's desire that none perish.

 

Tom, I would seriously request you think a little more before throwing such things the above out here.

Consistency is not in the eye of the beholder here because you seem to leave out some very important information that establishes consistancy. One being the fact that God changes the very life of the one who is crying out to God for mercy. That is one of His promises to us - a changed life and desires (ie a new man). And two he has given us His Spirit to guide, reveal, rebuke, etc.. accordingly so that we may continue in a right relationship with God our Father while we still dwell in these earthen but sin riden bodies/temples. Remember Paul stated 'the spirit is willing but the flesh is week'. Thus there is a battle between the flesh and spirit to continue to walk in righteousness but for our salvation but for our continued positive relationship. God's will doesn't 'trump' free-will (what I call the responsibility of the will/limited will) in the matter of security of the believer but God has established in them 'a change' as He has promised as part of his plan for our safe keeping. I would just like to point this out.

 

But you haven't reconciled it at all.

Dispite the fact I agree with you that the keeping of our salvation is not something we are in charge of however you are doing some poor hermenutics here with the 1 John passage. That passage speaks not to 'an act' but to a continous or on going attitude of hated which is equated with murder. Look at the verbage and you will see that it is a present and continuous action or on going action.

Many people would state that Peter was save prior to the resurrection but he had malice and murder in his heart against those who would come after Jesus. He proves this in the garden when he cut off the guards ear, and would have continued fighting and killing if he thought it was warrented until Jesus told him to put it away. And he did put it away and then fled from Jesus and denied him three times which is another thing a believer supposedly would never do.

What I am saying here is that King David, Peter, and small handfull of other OT names, who we contend were believers did in fact do some things that many today would state a believer would never do. Things like murder, adultry, lieing, dening God, drunk, etc... But the fact is, we see this at times in scripture and though it was never condoned and always repented of, believers did them.
A point of clarification here though - these actions of believers were not a life-style or way of life which scripture states is the life for the non-believer but were 'acts' done by believers. Scripture records these acts that these believers did and the consequences in their lives for it as well and the repentance which always followed. This is the reason scripture recorded it, becuase their lives were different from the unbelievers. They could not continue in sin and would repent, not for fear of hell fire but because their relationship with they loved had been damaged they were to blame and were ready to do whatever God desired of them to make up for it.

Thus it brings us back to Pual's passage in Eph 2:8-9, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.
As well as Titus 3:5; Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

If there is nothing we could do in order to earn our salvation then our salvation, whether obtaining it or keeping, is not dependant upon our actions but God's grace and mercy towards us.

Lastly I will say this. Even IF a person 'could' loose their salvation scripture states without reservation it is lost forever, and there is no chance to obtain it once more

 

Allan, since I consider you the nearest thing to a Calvinist that a non-Calvinist can be, it won't surprise you, I hope, that I agree with you in your view of security. I suspect that nearly every Baptist on this board will agree as well, because it's scriptural.

The Arminians are wrong, but they are consistently wrong. Free will is free will. They hold that if you can will to believe, you can will to unbelieve. They are consistent. But wrong. That's all I'm saying.

 

But you said 'non-cal Baptists'.
Anyway if that is the case Tom, my bad and I appologize.

I get so used to, and sick of, the majority of people on here calling me and others who are not Cals strictly and only Arminian if they hold to free-will, either that or semi-pelagain.

 

I gladly would not be considered a Cavinust, I am a Christian! I read in the scripture that a Christian can not loose his/her salvation. This was something that was so looooong before John Calvin wrote about it during his tyrannical reign in Geneva.

 

No apology necessary. I did refer to non-Cal Baptists, in contrasting them with Arminians, etc., but only in the context of my claim that regarding free will, you are somewhat inconsistent. Which, by the way, I am glad you are.

I do not consider non-Cal Baptists as Arminian. If you hold to salvation by grace through faith plus nothing, you ain't one of them Arminianistians.
If you believe that no one can snatch a believer from the Father's hand, you ain't one.

 

Ares Man said

Boy, you are way off. I spoke of the natural olive tree in Romans 11 concerning election, which is what this passage is speaking of and explaining. Please notice Romans 11:5.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Do you see the word election there in verse 5? Romans 11 is explaining the election.

The Jews were God's chosen people and still are. But not physical Jews, spiritual Jews. That is, those who hold the same faith as Abraham. This is shown in Romans 2.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Abraham is the father of all who believe. If you believe on Christ you are a son of Abraham. This is what Jesus said of Zacchaeus.

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

The Jews were God's chosen people, to them were the promises made and the scriptures.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

So, the Jews are the elect, the chosen, the natural olive tree. But those who did not believe were broken off. However, there was a remnant of seven thousand that remained faithful and continued to be the elect as shown in Rom 11:5.

Because the majority of the Jews did not believe, the gospel was preached to the Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

The word "emulation" in verse 14 means jealousy or rivalry.

Now, Gentiles who believe are the elect, the chosen people. This will provoke the unbelieveing Jews to jealousy, we have taken their place. They have been broken off the tree, and we have been graffed into the tree.

But, if they turn from unbelief to trust in Christ, they can be graffed back into their own natural tree and be the chosen and elect "again". And that is exactly what the scriptures show.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Here Paul warns us not to hold these unbelieveing Jews in contempt. For if they were broken off through unbelief, then so can we.

But notice in verse 23, that if these unbelieveing Jews repent and turn from unbelief to trust on Christ, they can be graffed back into their own tree. So election was not fixed before the foundation of the world. A person who does not believe today is the non-elect. But if they believe tomorrow they are the elect.

But God knows who will believe. This is why we are called the elect according to the foreknowledge of God.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The Jews are the elect, they are the chosen, they are the natural olive tree. The natural tree belongs to them. This has not changed whatsoever.

Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe, and who would not believe.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

This is why Jesus says he knows his sheep. He knows them because they hear his voice (the word of God). Notice Jesus first says his sheep hear his voice, and then afterward says he knows them. The order is very important, and I will show you that.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jesus knew from the beginning of time who would sincerely listen to God's word and believe. This is his foreknowledge. And those who will believe are the elect, his sheep. And I am going to prove that right now.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

First note this verse says "but now". That is important. Then it says "after that ye have known God". That is, now that you have believed on Christ and he dwells in your heart. But very importantly, notice it says "or rather are known of God"

Do you see that? Jesus doesn't know you in a personal sense until you trust on Christ. But the moment you believe you become "known" to God.

And this is difficult to understand, but the moment you believe and become known to God, then God knew you in his foreknowledge from the foundation of the world. You are now the elect "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father".

And there is more scripture to support this.

1 Cor 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

See, you have to love God to be known of him, you have to believe and trust his word.

And this is what Jesus meant of his sheep. He first mentions that they hear his voice. These are those that hear the word of God and believe. And it is when they believe that they become known to him. And it is when you believe that you become the elect (Rom 11:20). And God the Father knew from the foundation of the world who will believe.

He does not elect you and then impose faith on you. No, the moment you believe he knows you, not until. But when he knows you, he also knew you before time. That is too fantastic for our minds to understand, but what the scriptures say.

Have you ever wondered how Jesus chose his disciples? He chose those he knew from the foundation of the world would believe his word when they heard it. That is, all except Judas, but he knew that too.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

See, Jesus knew that all the apostles would believe except Judas. He knew that from the beginning.

 

Martin said:

Really? How about this New Testament verse?

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Who is he that is clothed in white raiment? It is those that have been washed clean in the blood of Christ.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If Jesus says he will not blot out the names of those who overcome and are clothed in white raiment, then whose names do get blotted out?

The unsaved of course.

But blotted out means to erase, or wash away, or scratch out. A person's name would have to originally be written in the book of life to be blotted out.

To a non-Cal this is not a problem. Jesus died for all men, not just a few as Calvinism teaches. God is not willing any should perish. A man's name is written in the book of life until he rejects Christ.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This verse doesn't even make sense if Calvinism is true. If Calvinism is true, then God's grace is irresisitable. Why then would God have to be longsuffering toward us? And why should he be concerned that the elect would not perish and come to repentance? If Calvinism is true, it is impossible that they would not be saved and come to repentance.

Again, yet another verse among hundreds of scriptures that make not an ounce of sense if Calvinism is true.

 

I did not say all Jews were lost, I knew of the seven thousand who did not bow the knee to the image of Baal. And this shows what election is based upon, faith in the true God and Christ.

No, it contradicts the unscriptural Calvinistic view of election.

You fail to realize that election is based on the foreknowledge of God. The very definition of foreknowledge is to know something before it takes place.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Calvinist's do not like this verse, but it will be in the word of God when heaven and earth pass away. Election is based on something God knows beforehand. I have shown several verses that shows Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

If it is not faith that God foreknows, then what is this foreknowledge of God? Please provide scripture to support what you think this foreknown thing is that election is based upon.

And even if you come up with something (which I doubt), it will still not do away with the fact that the scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not. So faith is absolutely one of the things God foreknew from the foundation of the world. The scriptures told of Jesus being sold for thirty pieces of silver by Judas hundreds of years before it took place (Zech 11:12-13).

I have already showed you in Romans 11 that a Jew that turns from unbelief can be graffed back into their own tree. So, it is not my human point of view, the word of God says this directly. The reason it does not make sense to you is that your mind has been trained to think one way only.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Those are God's words, not mine.

And when the scriptures say that believers were given to Jesus, this is also God's foreknowledge being shown. Jesus says that a man must be taught and learn of the Father to come to him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

OK, this says all that the Father gives Jesus shall come to him. We are both agreed. But keep reading in this same chapter.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Again, it speaks of those given Jesus by his Father. But don't stop reading, keep going.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

One of Calvinism's favorite verses. But the problem is, Calvinist's stop just one verse short. If you read the very next verse, all these other verses are explained and made clear.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

There is the answer to all the preceding verses shown. Every one that comes to Christ must have been taught of God. It says "Every man therefore that hath HEARD, and hath LEARNED of the Father cometh unto me"

Now, how does a man hear and learn from the Father? The scriptures of course. It is the word of God. And who provided the word of God? God the Father of course. So, without the word of God, the scriptures, no man could come to Jesus. So, this is why we are said to be given of the Father. And what did our Father know? He knew who would believe his scriptures. These are his people, his sheep, the elect.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

You are Jesus's sheep because you hear his voice (the scriptures). And notice Jesus knows these people. This is his foreknowledge.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You can identify one of God's children easily, because they hear and believe God's word.

Jesus's sheep are those that when they hear God's word, believe.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Unless God provided the scriptures, you and I would not even know who Jesus is. So, if we come to Jesus, it was given us by the Father who provided the scriptures we can trust and believe on.