The Election of Grace

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Martin Marprelate, Jan 17, 2011.

  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    there are many good resources on Pastor Thomas website,thanks for posting
     
  3. John Toppass

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    It was a good read, I do feel for him when he says "while I live in a day of grace and have hopes of heaven". I wish that he was assured of his salvation as I know that I am, because God said that if I accept His Son, Jesus Christ, then I shall be saved.

    God is so sovereign, that He gave each person the choice of life or death and He even gave us a hint to what to choose in Dt 30:19. It was not happenstance that I am a Christian it is not my work, but it is by faith and God's grace and the fact that I chose to accept the gift of salvation by choosing life thru Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
     
  4. Fred's Wife

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    Amen Bro John! I don't believe that God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. God is sovereign, but man is accountable. I also don't believe we must "persevere till the end" to be assured of our eternal salvation. If this is so, then where is our assurance of eternal salvation? We persevere because we ARE SAVED, not to be saved.

    Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    God knows the future and knows who will receive His offer of salvation. Election is based on God's foreknowledge.
     
    #4 Fred's Wife, Jan 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2011
  5. Rippon

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    God does nothing in a willy-nilly fashion. But He has the perfect right to do whatever He pleases because He is the Sovereign Lord.

    Amen. You'll get no complaint from me on that note.

    He doesn't merely know. He determines,ordains,appoints and setablishes.
     
  6. David Lamb

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    Having looked at the link, I can see where you might have got the idea that Geoff Thomas does not have assurance, but having known Geoff for over 30 years, and heard him preach on a number of occasions, I am almost certain that was not his meaning. In fact, there is a sermon of his on line at the SermonAudio site entitled "Assurance of Salvation" You can find it at http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=160571525

    I've transcribed a few of his introductory words:

    I'm dealing with the conviction a Christian possesses which makes him sure he is a believer, which makes him say, "I know my sins are forgiven. I know that I'm going to heaven. I know it because...." and then the grounds that he gives for his assurance.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Why can't He arbitrarily choose if He wishes to do so ?

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth , but of God that sheweth mercy . 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up , that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth......Romans 9:16-18


    A proud Babylonian king found that out a long time ago.

    Which man ? The sinner man ? unregenerate, God-rejecting, dead in sin and trespasses ? Fallen in, and condemned in Adam ?

    The sinner/saint man ? regenerate, elect from the foundation of the world, life hid in Christ, all sins covered by the blood of Christ, whose intercessor in Heaven is God in Christ Himself, whose inheritance is Christ, whose assurance is the Word settled forever in Heaven, whose future was laid out for him, secure in Christ, from the foundation of the world ?

    No, I am not antinomian. Far from it.
    The Bible demands practical holiness from the one who claims Christ as his own, but your statement that man is accountable necessarily ends with an "or else" statement.
    The unregenerate is ALREADY condemned and judged in Adam's fall, the elect children of God have ALREADY accounted for their sins, past, present, and future through Christ and in Christ, so for when is accountability ?
    For eternal consequences ?
    What for did Christ die on the cross, then ?

    So, where did "man is accountable" go ?

    Where is the Scripture for this "offer" of salvation ?
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    How sad. IF God did not choose unconditionally who was to be saved then what other scenario is correct?

    1. God allows man to choose? In that case, no one could possibly be saved. Man cannot choose right, cannot do any righteous thing, cannot even seek God and is at war with God. All go to hell.

    2. God chooses man based on some "condition"? If man is good enough, believes enough, works enough, does right things (see #1 to mock that idea) then God elects him? Absurd

    3. God looks ahead thru the corridors of time and sees who will believe and then elects him? Who then is "god"? God is seen as a "reactor" to the real power, man. And man has become "god", just as satan lied to Eve. Not so.

    Either God's election is 100% of His unmerited favor of hell-bound sinners or man is sovereign. Very sad thinking.

    (BTW God does not have to "choose" any to remain unregenerate. We are ALL in that condition. He simply can show mercy/grace to whoever He desires to show mercy/grace. The rest continue merrily into a Christless eternity.)
     
  9. glfredrick

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    Well said...
     
  10. freeatlast

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    I found it interesting that he said this in the article;
    "Two reasons for the eternal difference between us: Fela Kuti freely said no to the Lord Jesus."
    Yes we do make the choice!
     
    #10 freeatlast, Jan 18, 2011
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  11. kyredneck

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    24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
    25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Ro 8

    The Old Baptists use the word hope a lot in the same manner as this brother does. I would rephrase his statement thus:

    "while I live in a day of grace and have ANTICIPATIONS of heaven"

    I have seen this 'doctrine of assurance' displayed in some very unseemly ways, bordering on boasting or presumptuousness.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Jan 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2011
  12. John Toppass

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    You really must twist words to get that out of what has been said.
     
  13. John Toppass

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    To apologize for my rude statement. I think it only fair to explain my thoughts.

    You are right, man cannot choose right on his own, but when drawn by the Holy Spirit he can.

    John 12:32 (KJV) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    But, men can and do reject this calling or drawing because God in His sovereignty, has given mankind the ability to choose. (I believe this is result of making man in God's Image.) Stephen even speaks of the ability to reject the Holy Spirit in Acts.

    Acts 7:51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you".

    Indeed it is absurd, that man can be good enough, the scripture continually repeats that man cannot be good enough.

    Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

    Again, God in His Sovereignty gave man choice. God is still Sovereign, He has chosen, in His Sovereignty, to let man be accountable for his own choice.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Who said this? I hope you realize that God is not a reactor but the Creator! God's purpose for mankind was to have a fellowship, an intimate fellowship, with a creation that chooses to Glorify Him. That is the whole idea of creating mankind. The ability to choose was given to man by a Sovereign God, that is why He placed the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, so man could choose to obedient or be disobedient.
    The Church is made up of such creations. Those who chose to accept God as their Almighty, we do this by accepting the only way to Him and that is through His Son, Jesus Christ become the elect. The Church is the Bride and Jesus the Groom, the Bride has chosen the Groom because the Groom has Chosen His bride. Just as God has willed it!

    How silly to say that man is sovereign. God made man in His image, God did not make man gods. Man only has that which God has given him.
    God has predestined 100% of the elect!

    Eph 1:3-7. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
    5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
    6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

    We become the elect not because of anything within us. We become the elect by choosing the gift of everlasting life through Jesus Christ. The ability to choose comes not through man but through the Sovereign God. We must accept the drawing of the Holy Spirit and choose wisely, we must not be stiffnecked or we will never be the elect. We Christians are the elect because we are Christians not we are Christians because we are the elect!

    He can show mercy/grace on whoever He desires, and He desires that we choose Him. He even tells us to use the choice He has given us wisely.

    Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.

    When we truly realize why mankind was actually created (to glorify and worship God) and how man chose (an ability given to man by the Sovereign God) to be disobedient and destroyed his relationship with God, who is Sovereign; then the spreading of the 2nd chance God gave us to fulfill His desires for us, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, becomes essential to our very existence.

    Just my thoughts.
     
  14. calvin

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    a man ask a woman to marry him. does she or does she not have a choice? she can say no. she can also say yes, and then break off the engagement at a later date. in the same way, Christ is the bride groom. He does ask if we will be his. we can say yes or no. we can say yes, and at some later date break off the engagement. (fall away.) one thing He is never going to do, is take us by force. he is not going to force anyone to believe in Him. that would not be Love. for there to be Love. both partners have to be in agreement. even though from eternity, God chose Mary to bear his son, he still gave her the Choice. she could either say Yes, or No. Israel was given a choice. to choose life, or death. read it in the book of Joshua. God did not force them either way. its a cooperation, this is evident in the book of James. God is Sovereign but man does have a free will. Peace. :type:
     
  15. Fred's Wife

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    Great thoughts! Amen! :thumbsup:
     
  16. Rippon

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    But isn't that what it comes down to in your theology/philosophy?

    That is a mere truism.

    You contradict the very Scripture you quote. The elect are chosen before the foundation of the world. No one becomes elect. We become saved --not elect.

    It's not a matter of accepting the drawing. Everyone the Father gives to the Son will in fact come to Him.
     
  17. Robert Snow

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    Thank you for a wonderfully worded response. It saved me a lot of typing, and you said it better than I could have anyway.
     
  18. Robert Snow

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    Correct. The Father gives the Son the ones who will, of their own free choice, respond to the Gospel message.

    God is able to both be sovereign and allow man free choice, to believe differently is to put limits on God, which is preposterous..
     
  19. Amy.G

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    What does it come down to in your philosophy?
    God is the cause of every sin you ever committed because you do not possess the sovereignty to cause yourself to sin. Your system makes God the author of sin.



    Eph 1:4
    just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,

    Election for salvation is conditioned upon being "in Christ".



    When Stephen cried out "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do you.

    How can the Holy Spirit be resisted if He never drew them??



    And who is it the Father gives to the Son? They are the ones who "believed" God. They were looking for the Messiah. They are the sheep. They are the "he that has ears to hear".
    This is true also of Gentiles as Paul explains in Rom. 1. They knew God but would not glorify Him as God. Paul also says that before they can come to God they must believe that He is.
    Paul explains a progression towards salvation.
    1. The conscience bears witness that we have sinned. We know right from wrong.
    2. God has revealed Himself to ALL that He is creator.

    But, if man rejects this and instead chooses to remain in his sin, his heart will be darkened. Jesus spoke of this.

    Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.


    When rejection of God is complete, God turns man over to a reprobate mind.
     
    #19 Amy.G, Jan 20, 2011
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  20. Martin Marprelate

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    Hello John,
    Knowing Mr Thomas, I can say that he is using 'hope' as it is used in the Bible; that is a 'sure and cetain hope.' However, I don't think the bible ever uses the word 'accept' in relationship to our salvation. To be honest, the word makes me cringe. It reminds me of the sort of letter that Companies send to job applicants:-

    Dear Mr J. Christ,
    Your application for the post of saviour has been accepted on a trial basis subject to the usual terms and conditions.

    Yours faithfully,

    A. Sinner

    The faith that saves is not just acquiescence to someone else's stated opinion, or agreement to alleged facts. True saving faith is an obedient faith. Imagine Abraham saying, "I believe that God wants me to leave Ur of the Chaldees" and then staying right where he was! what sort of faith would that be? That's why James says that faith without works is dead. Someone is saved when he sees himself as a poor lost sinner whom God might justly send to hell, repents of his sin and lays hold of Christ as a drowning man might lay hold of a life-belt, believing in His promise of salvation.

    People cannot and will not do this in their own strength (John 6:44; 1Cor 2:14). Almighty God has to change our hearts in order for us to believe in this way (Acts 16:14). So radical is this change of heart that our Lord called it a 'New Birth' or a 'Birth from Above.' It is a birth of the Spirit (John 3:6), and that same Spirit changes our lives in a profound way. I'm sure you're familiar with it, but read again Gal 5:19-23.

    So, while those who truly repent of their sins and trust in Christ will, by the grace of God, persevere to the end, those who merely 'accept' Christ can have no such assurance unless their faith is proven by their deeds (Acts 26:20). Simon Magus 'believed,' was baptized and 'continued with Philip' (Acts 8:13) for a while, but his heart was never changed by The Holy Spirit and he soon fell away.

    You might find this article helpful.
    http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/new-birth-8-results-of-the-new-birth/
    So Paul got it wrong, and it is of him who wills and it is of him who runs as well as of God who shows mercy?

    Steve
     
    #20 Martin Marprelate, Jan 21, 2011
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