The Eternal Purpose of Christ PT 3

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SovereignGrace, Aug 17, 2015.

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  1. SovereignGrace

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    DHK stated this:



    Faith, the only thing that justifies sinners before God, comes from inside a sinful man and not God.


    By the way, that is TWICE you have edited my posts that contained nothing offensive. Please stop.
     
    #1 SovereignGrace, Aug 17, 2015
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  2. SovereignGrace

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    Why did you get the last word and lock that last thread, mon ami?
     
    #2 SovereignGrace, Aug 17, 2015
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  3. SovereignGrace

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    http://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-fair.html


    This is from me...


    Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying, “Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.”[Psa. 2:1-3]
     
  4. SovereignGrace

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    DHK:
    We are no longer in Satan's realm and rule but God's. Sure we sin in the flesh, but the Spirit convicts us and causes us to repent. God, through Christ, broke the bonds of Satan from us so that we no longer serve him, but Him. Believers are no longer a slave to sin.


    I agree that we go through what is called progressive sanctification.

    First off, go back to James 1:1 and see who James is writing to:


    James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings. He was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel(Jacob). So not everyone in those 12 tribes were Christians. Now look at what he wrote in the first 3 verses of James 4:

    What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

    Those are NOT characteristics of true blood bought Christians, monsieur. Not even close. It was like the Corinthian church that was in disarray. He was addressing the church as a whole to get out the leaven from that church. But there were unbelievers in that church. Here James is writing to the 12 tribes that were scattered. In this scattering, there were believers as well as unbelievers in those 12 tribes. It was those who killed, who coveted, who asked God for things using the wrong motives, who were unsaved. To show you that James was writing to the unbelievers too, look at what he wrote:

    Warning to Rich Oppressors
    Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.[Jas. 5:1-6]



    I agree. Now, who ever said He ever turned away anyone who came to Him? Please, show me just one. I will be here waiting, monsieur.

    No. We know that when God saves them He cleans them up. They may fall in the mud hole, but they will not roll around, wallow in it. They will come out of it and God will clean him up.


    We just view it differently, but we do not cut one verse out of the bible.

    If God pardons somebody, they are free to go. Now, He has not pardoned everybody though.


    Those that come to Him have already been pardoned. God has broken the bands of Satan from off of him, and that enables him to come to God. And again, show me one post when some says that God will refuse anyone, just one, who comes to Him. I will be here waiting, mon ami.


    And this is who God pardons, monsieur:

    In those days, at that time,” declares the Lord, “search will be made for Israel’s guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.[Jer. 50:20] The KJV says "I will pardon them whom I have reserved."
     
    #4 SovereignGrace, Aug 17, 2015
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  5. Yeshua1

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    How then can spiritually dead sinners, with a fallen sin nature who prefer to live and abide in darkness, all of a sudden decide to choose Jesus to get saved, apart from their desire and faith being the work of God on their behalf to enable them to do such?

    DHK is a classic arminion on salvation, and that is NOT meant as any disrespect, its just that he seems to see sinners as still having a measure of true free will, that God, that the Lord gave to all sinners enough grace to get saved if they would just make that right decision!
     
  6. DHK

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    And yet you never refute the Scripture I give you.
    1. The Bible never teaches that regeneration produces faith, nowhere.
    2. Ten lepers came to Jesus and were healed according the THEIR faith. Only one came back, a Samaritan and was saved.
    3. An unsaved Roman Centurion had greater faith than anyone else in Israel.
    4. The unsaved little children had faith. Jesus said except you be as these children you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Faith is innate. Even small children have faith.

    Here is a verse I haven't given you yet:
    Act 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
    Not including the population of Jerusalem the populations of the cities round about Jerusalem numbered in the thousands. Thousands of sick people came to Peter. They all expected to be healed. They all had faith that Peter would heal them. Unlike our "faith healers" of today They were healed every one. Peter healed them. They believed that Peter could heal (that is why they went there), and indeed Peter did heal them. They had faith. But it is safe to say that very few of them were saved. Just because they were healed doesn't mean they were saved. Faith doesn't save. Faith in Christ saves. Everyone has faith. But not everyone puts their faith in Christ.

    Hope comes from within a man also. Do you think the POW's of Vietnam and other wars had hope that they would be rescued? Did they have faith in their government that they would eventually send forces to come from them. That hope breeds faith. It is not faith in Christ, but it is faith. We all exercise faith. It is innate and it does come from within. Faith has an object. The faith that saves is that faith that has as its object Jesus Christ.

    I edited one post because of sexual content.
    See the rule here:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1007960&postcount=2
    Part of which is:
    I edited the other for images that were disparaging and too large. They took up too much space.
     
  7. DHK

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    Does that matter. The thread was between 25 and 30 pages. At that length it should be closed.
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    fhk

    Thats of the flesh, has nothing to do with spiritual hope, which the elect of God receive from their new birth by the resurrection of Jesus Christ [their head] from the dead ! 1 Pet 1:3

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Hope for the True Believer comes through the power of the Holy Ghost Rom 15:13

    Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

    That hope you speak of regrding the vietnam pows has no relevance in the Hope of Spiritual things, from the Blood and Righteousness of Jesus Christ !

    Faith and or Hope outside of Christ and the Love of God, is worthless ! 1 Cor 13:2

    And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

    man by nature may have faith and hope from within, but its not in God, because its a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22,

    and besides that, those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !
     
  9. DHK

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    Psalm 2 is a Messianic Psalm. Someday it will be fulfilled. It is not applicable right now and it does use very figurative language. Again, typical of the Calvinist to throw scripture out of context.

    God is just which means he is also fair. The Bible teaches both attributes. The Bible clearly teaches this, but Calvinism flat out rejects it. It has to. It demands that God, before the creation of the world, elected some to eternal life and left the others (unfairly) to eternal damnation. This is not Biblical, but Calvinism teaches it anyway, therefore them must change the doctrines of the Bible and conclude wrongly that God is not fair. What a farce!

    What other changes do the Calvinist make to the Bible to prop up their errant theology?
    Christ died for the sins of the world. This is obviously and plainly stated in so many scriptures I am not going to bother quoting them all, suffice it to say that John 3:16ff will do. But the Calvinist in most of these verses must change "the world" to "the elect," though that is not what the Bible says. Here a change, there a change; every where a change, change, leading farther and farther away from the truth for the sake of an ungodly man.

    Now God is not fair. Christ did not die for the sins of the world. Denial of truth obviously present.
    How is God fair?
    God did die for the sins of the world.

    Scripture:
    In preaching to idolatrous pagan heathen in Athens Paul concluded his sermon with these words:
    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
    Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

    Three times he declares to these pagans that God:
    1. commands ALL men EVERY Where to repent. Is he speaking just of the elect?
    2. He will judge the world in righteousness. Is he only going to judge the elect? These were unsaved idolaters.
    3. He has given an assurance to all men that there is a judgment to come. Is this just for the elect?

    He has said the same truth in Heb.9:27 concerning the last point.
    Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    These are three truths that all men know. They are demonstrated in Romans chapter one. God will hold all mankind responsible for the revelation they have--from nature, from their heart, from their conscience that bears witness to them. They have no excuse (Rom.1:20). They will be held accountable in the Day of Judgment.

    The Calvinist says it is impossible for them to understand "spiritual light." The Bible says otherwise. They will be held accountable for the light that they have been given by God Himself. We are not to be the judges of how much light and in which way God gives that light to the heathen.

    Is God fair? God will get the gospel (as he did to Cornelius) to any man who desires to be saved.

    OTOH, will Christians be held accountable for not getting the gospel out. Will the blood of the unsaved be on their hands. Yes, I believe it will.

    Look at some statistics.
    From my calculations, from Shem to Abraham only 1379 years had passed. In that time they say the world population had increased to no more than 6,000 people. For Abraham to get the message of salvation out would not be impossible, especially considering the number of servants that he had.

    By the time of Christ the population had increased to one hundred million, or one third of the U.S. population. Now there were not just the 12 apostles but 3,000 saved on the Day of Pentecost, the Lord adding daily to the church, and in Acts 8 a persecution that sent believers everywhere preaching the gospel. It was not impossible in that time for them to reach the world.

    Now in our time the world is about 7 billion, a population that seems almost unfathomable to our minds. And yet:
    Today almost every nation can be reached with some kind of media.
    In North America 87% of us are connected via the internet.
    In the entire world 43% use the internet. That is almost half of the world population is connected just through that one media alone.

    Just less than 80% of the world watches Television.
    The reception of radio signals can reach almost every country in the world.
    And literature? We live in a global world where there is a literacy rate of 84% world-wide.
    --With these statistics in mind, the technology available to us, we have no excuse to get the gospel out. Paul could never have traveled from North America to India as we are so easily able to do. So even though our world is 7 billion it is not impossible to reach it. God has given us the means, the wherewithal to do so, if only Christians everywhere would do their duty in carrying out the Great Commission. We need to use the tools that we have
    available to us to reach the world. It is not impossible.
    Any person in any part of the world can hear the gospel if they so desire to, and if any Christian is willing to go and tell them. God is fair.
    On that basis God fairly receives those into heaven who believe on the name of the Son of God, and rejects those who believe not on the name of the Son of God. This truth is repeated many times in Scripture.
    "He that hath the Son hath life: he that hath not the Son hath not life" 1John 5:12.
     
  10. DHK

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    And so we go back and forth between the unsaved and the saved (the Christian life). What you are saying is that a person has to become saved before he becomes saved? So confusing. God does not give faith to the unsaved, whether you call it carnal or not. On the spiritual realm it is a spiritual gift of the fruit of the Spirit. You have those two choices. The verses you use describe a Christian, one who is already saved. What does a person have to do to get there? He must put his own faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. There is no way around that fact. God does not believe for him.
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    Your Illustrations are worthless in the matter of Spiritual things ! The natural man cannot do anything Spiritually, he has no life to do it !
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    No, but the lord does supply for that sinner the thing that he lacks the capacity to do in his/her fallen state, believe unto Jesus!
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    False statement, what scripture says :


     
    #13 savedbymercy, Aug 17, 2015
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  14. DHK

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    Do you ever wonder why Paul never explained that to the Philippian jailer nor Philip to the Ethiopian Eunuch.
    Did they ever tell them: Look you have to be regenerated before God can give you this supernatural faith that you need to be saved. So listen carefully. If you don't get it, don't worry about because you might not be one of the elect anyway.

    Yep, that is one foolish way of salvation, thankfully never taught in the Bible. But it seems like that is what needs to be taught by Calvinists in order to be saved. That is what you are telling me.
     
  15. DHK

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    1. You have a wrong definition of "dead". It simply means "separated." All unsaved are spiritually separated from God, as Adam was when he sinned. Notice that though Adam sinned he was still able to communicate with God.
    Notice also that even though Cornelius was not saved God communicated with him because He knew that Cornelius was searching for God, something that Calvinists say is impossible (as you just did). The evidence is against you. Death simply means separation.

    What to do about it? A separated person needs reconciliation.
    2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    --not the elect, but the world. Then he committed unto US the ministry of reconciliation that we might go to the "dead", those separated from God with this ministry of reconciliation. This is important because of our position. Read on:

    2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    --You have a responsibility; you are an ambassador for Christ.

    And you my friend are an classic "Augustinian" a founder of the RCC, a believer in infant baptism, a follower of the doctrine of Purgatory.

    Leave the name calling out. I am a non-Cal, not an Arminian. An Arminian believes one can lose their salvation, even as an Augustinian believes in the doctrines I listed.
    BTW, if you were a true Calvinist, a follower of the doctrines of Calvin, you would believe as he does in infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, baptism by an unregenerate RCC priest as valid, only ministerial baptism is valid, etc. He had strange doctrines that he believed that he carried over from the RCC. Remember he was a "Reformer" before he became a Protestant. He tried to reform the RCC from within. He still believed in much of the Catholic doctrine. So you are a die-hard Catholic, er Calvinist, eh?
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    Who said it was not the elect world is 2 Cor 5:19 ? It's a world that is sinless before God since He doesn't impute sins to it!
     
  17. DHK

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    Just read it: carefully, slowly, deliberately. Don't change any of the words. Read it out loud if you have to. Meditate on it. Get the Calvinism out of your mind. Just read the words only that are in the verse and see what it says:

    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Do you see that: "reconciling the w-o-r-l-d unto himself."
    It means just what it says. Just let that word sink deep into your heart. Don't let anyone change it for you. The word is "world" not elect. "reconciling the world. Got it?
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    Where does it say it is not the world of the Elect? That is what you said, but the verse doesn't say that!
     
  19. DHK

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    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    --No, it is your word against God's word.
    Show me the word "elect."
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    You said it is not the world of the Elect! That's not in 2 Cor 5:19 !
     
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