The eternal purpose of Christ pt2

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by PreachTony, Aug 11, 2015.

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  1. PreachTony

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    The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ: Part II

    The previous thread reached 30 pages and had to be closed. I was in the middle of responding to Brother Icon when the thread closed. If it is not out-of-line, I would like to start Part II of that thread in order to answer. If it is out-of-line, then Mods feel free to shut us down.

    ***

    So man is only able to resist for a time? But that goes against the term "Irresistible," regardless the end result. Even if you called it "Effectual Grace," you're still stuck with the fact that with man having no option in the process, then it must necessitate God forcing the change, and thereby the salvation, on that man. You can dress it up however you want, but if Person A put something on Person B that Person B never desired, there is no other definition but "force." Do not consider this an equitable statement with God doing violence to someone. It is not. It is merely God not allowing man a choice. If man has no choice but to be saved, or never has the opportunity from God to be saved, then God is indeed the final arbiter of eternal destiny, but He also becomes the author of confusion and evil. We know God is not, but under your theology He is.

    I'm not going to lie to you Icon...I think the doctrine of Election as described by Calvinism is deplorable. It posits God as a being that has chosen a few, damned the rest, could take those out of damnation but doesn't, then claims He has no joy in the death of the wicked, and who commands men to repent knowing that He will never allow most of them the ability to repent. I don't care what the Baptist Confession of 1689 says. I care what scripture says. Why do Calvinist seem to rely so heavily on theologies and documents from 1500 to 1600 years after Christ instead of relying on the written witness of Christ? From what I can read, it seems like Calvinist look at scripture through the lens of the theology instead of looking at theology through the lens of Scripture.

    No where is man-centered language in scripture? I don't like calling it man-centered, as it is not, but what about these? These invitations involve God calling and man having to answer.
    And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.(Rev 22:17)
    And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.(Mark 8:34)
    Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (Acts 8:35-17)
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)
    These sound a lot like men having to answer God's call rather than God simply acting alone with man having no part whatsoever.

    I would talk to you about how God desires all to be saved, and does not want any to perish, but you've already tried to tell us that 2 Peter 3 is only meant for the saved and no one else. So I ask you this: If God had already Elected the "us-ward" to the point that they could not escape their Election, then why would He have to be unwilling that any perish, seeing as He had already secured them?

    There is no non-Cal (or at least I hope there is no non-Cal) who would try to tell you they saved themselves. We will tell you that God does everything. There is nothing within us that can provide us salvation. That does not absolve us from the requirement that we believe first.

    So man does have to do something (cling to the cross)? Honestly, how can you read the scripture and not see the invitations I listed above and recognize that man must answer God's call? Why stand so rigidly on the notion that man has no input when scripture obviously reveals that man must believe (i.e.: man has input)?

    You keep referring to the confession. I'm going to keep going back to scripture:
    But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matt 6:33)
     
    #1 PreachTony, Aug 11, 2015
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  2. PreachTony

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    Part 2 of Post #1

    Again, you are doing nothing but displaying how in your theology God forces salvation upon "His Elect." And if God forces salvation, then there is no other way but to say that God likewise forces damnation. At least preachers like John Piper admit the necessity of this, claiming double predestination as another point of Calvinism.

    Yet you have apparently "unknowingly" done so by refusing the invitations listed in scripture. You have done so by removing any input on man's behalf. I don't doubt that you earnestly do not want to do this, but your theology necessitates you adding these things to scripture that never bore them out in the first place.

    Again, you claim that my side does not reference scripture. Yet this entire conversation I have given you nothing but scripture while you have given scripture tinted with Calvin's beliefs (1500 years younger than the scripture) and the 1689 Confession (nearly 1700 years younger). Why must you continually try to belittle the opposite side with accusations of humanized philosophy when all we've done is quote the Word?

    You've purposefully obscured your intent by using a word that has multiple definitions of varying meaning, when clearer words were available. Such as:
    Do you see how much clearer you could've been, had you wanted. Are you saying that God purposely chose to obscure His own word? I didn't think God was the author of confusion?
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    In a now closed thread there were unanswered questions.....lets look once again;

    DHK said in the edited post 279;


    Lets look....DHK posted

    I responded
    is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.


    You quote half of the verse to attempt to avoid the clear teaching...but this gives a meaning different from the God given meaning.....I was thinking where else did I see someone do that?

    Of course....it was Satan.....look here;

    Satan left out half the verse changing the meaning...
    .He left out "in all thy ways" which we see in psalm 91:11

    Jesus rebuked Satan for taking away from Gods word......so why do you follow the hermeneutical method of Satan in changing the meaning by leaving
    out the words...to usward, or toward us......even appealing to a bogus paraphrase??

    Quote:
    they are not a blank slate....they love sin is why they are not saved.

    no one seeks God no not one.....they seek idols, they seek sin



    --

    Where have I ever said that I do not believe in missions?

    This is a vile accusation...not the first time you have done this....now to quote you from the now closed thread;;;

    Go ahead big boy...show one quote where I ever said I do not believe in missions.....show it just one time...you cannot ....you know why....it is a lie that is why....

    You are lying again..... I have posted about a missionary friend living in bamboo huts in Indonesia having started a growing church on a predominately muslim Island....and you questioned his credentials ina very disgraceful way...remember?

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1426504624229820/

    The missionary and his family are Calvinists sent from a Baptist church in Missouri and yet you questioned his credentials:laugh:

    ?

    Another baseless charge from you....

    This has been answered
    This has been answered solidly...you just do not welcome it.

    This has been answered...you ignore it.
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    In the now closed first thread this was offered to PT...you can respond here;
    PreachTony


    Quote:
    So grace is not ultimately resisted,

    This saving grace is always effectual....or the sheep would not be saved.


    Quote:
    meaning man chooses to accept God's grace.

    No....Unsaved men mostly do not even understand theological terms in a biblical way for the most part.

    I offered you the confession of faith for a reason awhile back.....it attempts to detail exactly why this grace is effectual....The godly men were very careful when they worded the document


    In post 261 I highlighted how the confession describes it...I will repeat it for you now;
     
  5. PreachTony

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    I actually replied in a thread started 2 minutes before this one. What should we do?
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    I cannot leave out my good friend Steaver;

    steaver


    .

    Cals work to study to clarify the scriptural positions even more

    you are corncerned with so many side issues.....leave it to Steaver


    No...I know it is true and steadfast being the scriptural teaching. I come looking to grow and learn from more gifted brothers like Reformed, Protestant, SG, Rippon, OLD Regular, AA. Dr. Bob,and so many others.

    I try and be helpful when I can....but it drowned out by the constant barrage of attacks from those who would oppose these truths.


    Calvinism is true so I have no agenda to "prove it". I do have an agenda to grow in grace and learn more about My Lord and Master....Jesus Christ.

    If that means doing battle against gainsayers, and false teachings, and various enemies of the cross and true doctrine....we can go there.


    Speaking of hypocrisy...let me ask you Steaver...what do you post that you believe to be error???

    In other words...what do you post where you say to yourself.....
    This belief I have is wrong but I will post it anyway...

    Everyone thinks they are correct until someone shows them the error.
    __________________
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    which thread....have keyboard will travel:thumbs::thumbs:
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    okay ...good job PT... I will respond to you here...we must have started our threads at the same time...I type slow...lol
     
  9. DHK

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    Let's shut this one down simply because it is the shorter of the two threads.
     
  10. DHK

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    My response to this entire post is given here:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2250240&postcount=295

    Answer that post.
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    PreachTony

    When the word goes forth in the general preaching and teaching of the bible ...this is referred to as the general call....why ?

    because it is outward and external it is heard with the physical ear...it is seen with physical eyesight......

    but as those who wrote the 1689 write.....

    []enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;]

    Here from A BAPTIST CATECHISM With COMMENTARY;BY W.R.Downing

    PT.....I do not do semantics...I do not get into philosophical speculations.
    I go with doctrine and scriptural truth .....someone else might chase these ideas...I go for the bottom line...not as concerned with rabbit trails...

    I do not need to dress it up...I am just to faithfully declare what scripture says.

    ,

    again from the confession....

    psalm 110:3

    When the Spirit shows a man his guilt before a HOLY GOD by using the mirror of God's Holy law...the man is undone like Isaiah was.

    If men wanted to come to God on his terms...and God stopped them then you can say something about it...

    men are responsible...they make a choice everyday.....it is sin and death
     
    #11 Iconoclast, Aug 11, 2015
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  12. Iconoclast

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    PT posted;
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Aug 11, 2015
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  13. Iconoclast

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    PT posted;
     
  14. SovereignGrace

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    DHK,


    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2204497&postcount=196


    Now, in this post you stated:


    So God is not willing any should perish, but willingly damns those that do not believe, mon ami? If you do not see the schizophrenia....
     
  15. SovereignGrace

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    DHK, can you merge the two threads so these posts are in one thread? I do not know if you have that function available to merge threads.
     
  16. DHK

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    My answer was given in post #295.
    Here is a part of it:
     
  17. SovereignGrace

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    PreachTony,


    You said this in the thread you started, but DHK mentioned shutting that one down, so I will post my thoughts here:

    You guys say it is all of God, yet unless you bring faith into the equation He can not save you. Now matter how hard He tries by sending witnesses, no matter how many sermons He causes preachers to preach to you, unless you do something, He can not save you.


    In your theology, God has done His part, now you must do yours. How is that all of God, mon ami?
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    pt 2


    UhhMMM.. maybe because after the printing press was invented and God brought reformation and Spiritual revival, the bibles and bible teaching multiplied. the documents we use help us grow in knowledge of Jesus....Historical records were passed on.

    .

    well...let me help you from the confession...what is the first chapter of the confession deal with.

    Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
    1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
    ( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
    2._____Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these:

    All of which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life. ( 2 Timothy 3:16)

    3._____ The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings.
    ( Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2 )

    4._____ The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.
    ( 2 Peter 1:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9 )

    5._____We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
    ( John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27)

    6._____The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
    ( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)

    7._____All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.
    ( 2 Peter 3:16; Psalms 19:7; Psalms 119:130)

    8._____The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.
    ( Romans 3:2; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 15:15; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28; Colossians 3:16 )

    9._____The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly.
    ( 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16)

    10.____The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.
    ( Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23)




    [These sound a lot like men having to answer God's call rather than God simply acting alone with man having no part whatsoever.
    [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

    All thru scripture God urges sinners to come, believe, repent......Until God enables them they will not.
    The passage is meant to comfort the persecuted church as scoffers mock at the promises of God. The elect church who are already saved is assured that the only reason God is longsuffering, putting up with thenwicked is so that ALL he has purposed to save will indeed be saved.....two different words are used for willing in the passage...thelo.and bulomai....

    Entry for Strong's #1014 - βούλομαιTransliteration:boúlomai

    Phonetics:boo'-lom-ahee


    middle voice of a primary verb

    Thayer's Definition
    1. to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded
    2. of willing as an affection, to desire


    The word is teaching that God has decreed that he is not willing that ONE elect person perishs apart from His salvation. he has secured it and it will happen...peter sums up that passage for us...there is no speculation;

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.



    Connect the dots.....paul spoke of the longsuffering of God in romans 9...you know...THE ELECTION CHAPTER.....AS IN VS 16 PETER SAYS ...SOMETHINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD.......Election, predestination...that is what he is speaking about.....do you see this?

    .



    I have heard on this board some who boast of what they did...and How they had faith....that others did not have
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Aug 11, 2015
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  19. SovereignGrace

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    But God is not willing anyone should perish and then willingly casts them into hell. That is schizophrenia...
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    DHK says;
    Jesus said;

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Aug 11, 2015
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