The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Jul 31, 2015.

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  1. Protestant

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    According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord (Eph. 3:11)

    I first wish to thank Pastor DHK for allowing the previous thread to reach 31 pages.

    This thread is dealing specifically with God’s eternal purpose in Christ.

    All God’s purposes originate in eternity before creation took place.

    This is a difficult concept for many because many seek reasons for God’s purposes.

    The reasons are according to the counsel of His own will. (Eph. 1:11)

    Nothing or no one influenced His counsel because nothing and no one existed before God brought it or him into existence.

    the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    (Romans 11:35)

    Please note verse 35. Our Pelagian/Arminian friends would have themselves be the ones who gave God their faith in Christ, thereby deserving eternal life.

    But Scripture, once again, dismisses such arrogance declaring it was God who gave them faith.

    Synonyms for ‘Purpose’

    When we speak of one’s ‘purpose’ we speak of one’s intention, one’s goal, one’s end, one’s objective, one’s mission, that which one specifically wills to achieve.

    So we ask: Was it God’s eternal purpose, intention, goal, objective, mission to save every person ever born?

    If you answer ‘Yes’ then He has failed miserably in achieving His goal.

    But God cannot fail at anything. If He did, He would be no God.

    My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.(Isaiah 46:10)

    God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? (Numbers 23:19)

    If you answer, ‘No,’ then God has not failed at achieving His objective because not all are saved.

    We must then ask: What was God’s eternal purpose in Christ?

    Was Christ to die for all mankind that all might be saved?

    If you answer ‘Yes’ then Christ has failed miserably in His mission.

    And what was His mission?

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Matt. 1:21)

    There you have it in plain, easy to understand language a child could comprehend: He shall save His people from their sins.

    Has Jesus saved all people from their sins? No.

    Is He a failure on that account?

    No, because we are specifically told that He shall save His people – not all people – from their sins.

    There is a difference. A difference which our Pelagian/Arminian friends choose not to recognize.

    According to their misguided theology, they claim Jesus came to give His life as Savior for all people. In fact, the whole world.

    John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 are their classic proof texts.

    Had Jesus and innumerable other Scriptures not taught the contrary, our opponents might have a leg to stand on……not two legs, but one leg.

    Let us listen to the words of Jesus in John 17, words of prayer spoken to the Father moments before being taken captive that He might be put to death.

    These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.


    We discover in verse 2 there is an exchange between the Father and the Son.

    The Father has a specific people – specific in number and identity – who He has given to Christ.

    To what purpose were they given?

    To the end that Christ should give them eternal life.

    Which brings us back to John 3:16.

    Had it been the eternal purpose of God in Christ to give Christ to all the men in the world?

    No. His purpose was to give specific people to Christ and those same specific people were those to whom Christ was to give eternal life.

    Does eternal life include saving faith?

    Of course it does. By grace we are saved through faith.

    But does not man give saving faith in Christ to God and receive back the gift of eternal life as a just reward?

    No. Faith is the first and primary component of eternal life.

    Why would our infinitely all-wise God give Christ and every other spiritual gift necessary to eternal life and leave it up to sinful, wretched man to supply the most essential component: a holy, justifying, living faith in the Son of God?

    Man is dead to God, devoid of the Spirit, and cannot comprehend the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned.

    Christ died that the Elect would believe and have eternal life.

    So says John 3:16.

    The Elect are raised from spiritual death by the same power that raised Christ from the dead. (Eph. 1:19-20)

    From that same power comes faith.

    Did Christ die for the world?

    No. How do we know?

    Because He prayed not for the world, but only for them which the Father gave Him. (John 17:9)

    But is He not praying only for His disciples?

    No. He is praying for all who will believe on His name. (John 17:20)

    Are they also considered among the people given Christ by the Father.

    Yes. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me and the one who comes to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

    CONCLUSION: Our holy God is highly dishonored by positing an eternal will and purpose to save all, yet saves few. Such a God is not the biblical God.

    Furthermore, our holy infinitely all-wise God is shown to be less wise than man by providing the Savior, but not providing all the necessary graces which must accompany salvation, i.e. saving faith.

    Especially if His will is to save all men.........which it isn't.
     
    #1 Protestant, Jul 31, 2015
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  2. JohnDBaptiste

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    And sovereign God giving man the ability and the responsibility to choose undoes a lot of the ways we three dimensional thinkers try to box in an omni-dimensional being.
     
  3. JohnDBaptiste

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    The eternal purpose of God in Christ is spelled out in his high priestly prayer (John 17).

    John 17:5 (AV)
    5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
     
  4. PreachTony

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    Really? Did you not read this?
    Christ most assuredly died for the whole world, unless you want to pull the standard Calvinist move and say "the whole world" is merely a euphemism for "the Elect."

    Again, really?
    You actually believe God does not want to save all men? You think He does not want all men to come to repentance? You think He did not die for the wins of the whole world? Do we have different Bibles?
     
  5. Rippon

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    So you think Christ died for each and every person who ever existed and shall exist. Christ did not pray for the each and every. He died for the elect alone. He prayed for his disciples who his Father gave him "out of this world." And he prayed (and consequently died for) those who will believe in him.


    Does he accomplish all that he desires? The answer is of course. All are not saved. His intent was to save his own and them alone.

    Do you think he wants to save those he blinds and hardens? Do you think he wants to save those who he does not reveal himself to?

    Do you think he wanted to save all those already in perdition before he was even incarnated?
    See above.
     
  6. SovereignGrace

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    Mon ami, you need to do a Greek word study on the word used for 'propitiation'. It means appeasement. Then appeasement means to satisfy, appease, placate, pacify God's wrath. God poured out His holy wrath on His Son as He was atoning for our sins. Now, if God's wrath is appeased, satisfied, pacified, placated, then no one goes to hell, monsieur.

    God's love covers the 'whole entire world', oui. But it is not bestowed upon everybody who ever lived. Did Christ die for those who were already dead and in hell, monsieur? So then He did not die for everybody, the whole world, mon ami.


    Oui, vraiment.



    You take that one passage and try to make it an absolute, monsieur? You have it that God is the biggest failure ever. Look at two verses you guys misapply to fit your schema:

    All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.[2 Cor. 5:18,19]

    On the surface, it appears to be universal in application. But hold la onions, monsieur.' It states 'not counting people's sins against them.' Now, no sin goes unpunished, mon ami. So if God is not counting them against them, where did they go? The Atlantic ocean? Non. The Pacific, Indian, Artic oceans, Mediterranean sea? Under a snow bank? In a deep, dark cave? Non. They went to Christ, our Sinbearer, as He atoned for them on the cross by This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.[Acts 2:23]

    Christ also had distain for the Pharisees as He told them You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.[Jn 8:44] Then Jesus uttered these words right before He was betrayed "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” If God truly desired to save everybody, everbody would be saved, monsieur.
     
    #6 SovereignGrace, Aug 1, 2015
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  7. PreachTony

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    Sometimes, Rippon, I'm not even sure we worship the same God. The God made evident through the lens of Calvinism is a duplicitous deity that demands we repent and desires all to be saved, yet never affords them the ability or opportunity to be saved or to repent. He is shown as a creator more than willing to damn the majority of His creation to eternal torment, simply because He did not choose them out earlier.

    The Bible tells us that God desires all men to be saved, and commands all men to repent, yet the Calvinist says God must make us repent before we can actually repent. That makes God's statement a dubious one at best, seeing as He is calling for us to repent, and then, per your ideology, He never grants the ability to repent, and then blames us for not doing something He never gave us the ability to do in the first place.

    That, quite simply put, is not the God I find evident in the scriptures. The God found in Calvinism is very much a vicious monster. I say that with a clear conscience, because I don't believe Calvinism's God is the same God found in scripture.

    By and large, in my experience, it is the Calvinist camp that has to twist wording and scripture to make it conform to their ideology. They have to say things like "well, 'the world' doesn't actually mean 'the world,' it only means the Elect."
     
  8. PreachTony

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    And now I remember why I left this place to begin with. Apparently unless you believe God hates the vast majority of His own creation and desired to damn them to torment for eternity you don't really have a hold on the scriptures. :BangHead:

    Yep, I'll show myself out.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    God does not reveal himself to everyone. You have chosen to invent your own God apparently.....many do that. When you turn from scriptural truth you go into darkness......you come back and launch this ill fated attack to no avail.

    You post quite foolishly in the last 4-5 posts I see....have you been drinking??

    Apparently you are unable to welcome spiritual truth....might as well leave, no one is buying what your selling.

    Well that is on you...Rippon worships the God of the bible who you hate and call vile names. we would recommend you repent. Your man centered ideas are not the gospel at all...it is sickly sentimentalism and emotional drivel.
     
    #9 Iconoclast, Aug 1, 2015
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  10. SovereignGrace

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    Do not leave, mon ami.

    Did Christ died for those who died before He came in the flesh?
     
  11. SovereignGrace

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    If I was drowning and you tried every possible way to save me, yet I drowned, would you call it a 'smashing success'? I would surely hope not. :laugh:


    Well, what about the likes of Adolph Hitler, Genghis Khan, Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Ted Bundy, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Vlad Dracula(Vlad the Impaler), Joseph Stalin, Ivan the Terrible? They were some of the cruelest people who ever lived. Yet, in your schema, you feel better because God 'tried' to save them. These guys are the epitome of This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.[John 3:19,20]
     
  12. Protestant

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    It is my intent in writing these discourses to expose the contradictions held by our Pelagian/Arminian/non-Cal friends.

    To do so I always harken back to the attributes of God as revealed in His Word.

    It is my experience that too many professing Christians have not a clue as to whether or not the God they worship is compatible with the revealed God of the Bible.

    Too frequently they begin their studies with Man: his failures and shortcomings.

    They then progress to the Good News: God loves them unconditionally and sent them a Savior.

    They then are asked to make a decision for Christ, which they do amidst a stirring, emotionally saturated atmosphere.

    Once ‘saved’ they then learn all the wonderful blessings God has in store for them: health, wealth and popularity.

    Alas, the most important Bible study is neglected: learning the revealed attributes of the God they claim to serve.

    Why? Because it requires much study, prayerful reflection and logic.

    For many that process takes too much of their time and effort.

    It also rubs against the grain of their preconceived, ill-conceived beliefs when confronted with the hard, pure truth of the matter.

    As a result, they shut down and continue on their merry way, not willing to do the work necessary to understand what are, on the surface, confusing Scriptures which, in their minds, are clear contradictions.

    Never mind that for centuries after centuries wise men of God have explained and correlated those difficult passages so they need no longer be considered contradictory.

    But such a revelation requires the serious Christian to interpret the Scriptures through the lens of our holy, sovereign God’s perspective.

    I have in the recent past dialogued with Tony regarding the same issues he, once again, raises.

    What I find quite sad is that despite the clear explanations, all with Scriptural proofs, Tony’s ears were shut tight.

    It is as if we never had the lengthy dialogue.

    For here he is again, using the same tired arguments which have been refuted time and again.

    So at this time I would like to compare the God worshipped by Tony and the God we worship.

    Tony’s God:

    1. Sends a Savior to save the world, yet fails to do so.

    2. Loves the world, yet His love is not quite powerful enough to save the world He loves.

    3. Owes all men an equal shot at salvation.

    4. Denies Himself His rightful sovereign rule, preferring man’s free-will to overrule His will.

    5. Loves those who are now or will soon be in Hell, as much as He loves those who are now or will soon be in Heaven.

    6. Had all eternity to devise a perfect plan which could successfully save all humanity, yet failed to do so.

    Our God:

    1. Sends a Savior to specifically save those the Father gave Him.

    2. He loses none.

    3. Loves those He chose with an everlasting love which never fails to bring them to Him in Heaven.

    4. Hates all the workers of iniquity.

    5. With a perfect holy and righteous purpose and intention chose some for mercy and the rest for judgment.

    6. Owes no man grace, but owes all men justice.

    These are a few of the differences between our God and Tony’s God.

    And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
     
  13. DHK

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    I am sure that Tony worships the one true God of the Bible--Jesus Christ: the second person of the Triune Godhead, the Creator of all things, etc.

    He sent a savior to save all the world, and did not fail in sending that saviour to all the world. He came didn't he? Your allegation is wrong. Do you also deny the virgin birth?

    Again, a false allegation, or at the very least conclusion. He has all power in heaven and in earth (Mat.28:18). He told Peter to put up his sword for he could have requested His Father to send 12 legions of angels (one legion has 6,000). He is all powerful; omnipotent. Please do not deny his omnipotence.

    God is just and fair. That is his nature. Even Abraham said:
    "Shall not the God of all the earth do right (be just and fair)?"
    You seem to deny this truth, and his attribute of justice and fairness to mankind. He gave to man the characteristic of justice and fairness, and made man in the image of God. But you make God into a cruel monster after the image of Calvin. That truly is sad.

    Again, not true. The non-Cal believes more in the sovereignty of God than the Cal. The Cal limits the sovereignty of God and in so doing weakens both the character and strength of God.
    In God's sovereignty the non-Cal views God as One who has the authority to allow man to have a will to choose or reject Jesus Christ. This does not violate his sovereignty but strengthens it. In allowing man, within the boundaries of his sovereignty to choose to receive Christ, God's sovereignty becomes greater than the limited sovereignty the Calvinist allows God to have. He is afraid that God will "lose control." He (in the Cal's eyes) really isn't omnipotent.

    This is not true, since he believes all men has a choice to choose his own destiny and does not have a predetermined destiny before the foundation of the world (also called reprobation). This Calvinistic doctrine is one of the most horrible doctrines ever invented by man, and goes contrary to the character of God.

    God fails at nothing. If the Calvinist does not understand Scripture because he approaches it with predetermined false pretexts whose fault is that? Certainly not that of the non-Cal!

    No need to answer. See above.
     
  14. Rippon

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    PT's meanderings follow the tracks of John Wesley at his worst.

    PT : My post 5 was short and to-the-point.

    You objected to it most strenously.

    Why then didn't you simply address it, line-by-line?

    When you just show venom, it exposes not only your heart --but your biblical inadequacy.
     
  15. Rippon

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    Why do you make stupid and sinful remarks like that? You do this habitually.

    Yet another example of your immoderate conduct.
    You just can't help yourself.
    You are the court jester.
    Another nonsense remark which you have become noted for.
     
  16. DHK

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    I assess a (stupid) statement and ask myself why it would be made in the first place. A person who denies that Christ would be a Saviour for mankind would be questioning his ability to save? On what grounds? His deity? His perfect manhood? The incarnation is a good place to start in questioning those beliefs. Tony never questioned that Christ was a Savior. Someone else did. What other related beliefs are being questioned. Not stupid or sinful.
    Whose conduct is in question here? The ability and power of Christ to save was being questioned by your fellow Calvinist? That is sick!
    Why the false allegations here? Who can't help themselves?
    Again, the power of Christ is being questioned, and the accusation being made that Christ is a failure? Preposterous! Do you also look on Christ as a failure, as your fellow Calvinists do?

    Not I, do you even read what is being posted?
    Do you understand the sovereignty of God, really? I don't think so.
    Or is it, you don't like my explanation simply because I am a non-Cal explaining sovereignty to you a Cal. It is beyond your dignity. Is that the real problem?
    You are not following this discussion are you?
    God fails at nothing. That was my remark.
    So you believe God fails. Tell me more about your failing God.
    Thus was my further remark that he really isn't omnipotent if, in your opinion he fails.
     
  17. Protestant

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    The Parable of the Tower Builder

    For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
    29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
    30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
    (Luke 14:28-30)

    Consider that the God revealed in the Bible is similar to the tower builder.

    First, the man begins with an intention, a goal, a purpose.

    His intention: to build a tower.

    The Lord God also has an intention: to build His Church.

    I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18)

    Next, the man must count the cost to determine if he has the funds to actually finish his dream tower.

    Likewise, the Lord God counted the cost of such an expensive and miraculous endeavor.

    It cost the Father the life of His beloved Son.

    He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Romans 8:32)

    Unlike the materials used to build a tower, the materials used to build Christ’s Church are Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ…..Christ the chief cornerstone.

    Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house (1 Peter 2:5)

    Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (1 Peter 2:6)

    Unlike the cost of building a tower, the cost of building Christ’s Church was of a completely different nature.

    The cost of building His Church was Christ’s blood.

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    (1 Peter 1:18-19)

    Herein Lies the Difference Between the True and the Counterfeit

    The true actually finishes building His Church to the exact specifications of His architectural plans.

    He drew up His plans in eternity and is completing construction now in the Church Age.

    One day construction will be complete.

    Revelation 21 gives us a sneak peek.

    She is a beauty.

    Not one living stone is missing. All are present and accounted for.

    The counterfeit, however, intended a structure comprised of many more living stones.....a whole world of them.

    Lamentably, the counterfeit’s Church will never match the original blueprints.

    The counterfeit’s intentions were good, but, alas, failed to reach its goal, requiring extensive revisions and delays.

    CONCLUSION: The God of Scriptures will not be mocked.

    He is building His Church with the precise number of living stones He always intended.

    He has handpicked the individual stones, passing over many others in the process.

    Why?

    He has His reasons.

    And you can be sure they are good, holy and righteous reasons.
     
  18. Rippon

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    Protestant did not question the Saviorhood of Christ --no Calvinist has.
    Calvinists believe that Christ came to actually secure salvation for a host of people known as the elect and many other designations in God's Word. We don't believe in hypotheticals as you and your like-minded buddies do.
    It's no false allegation. You said that Calvinists believe in a monster God.

    Those kind of infantile comments coming from you over the years is sickening.
    Properly :"Why can't you help himself?" You revert to childish behavior in your posts much of the time.
    Yet another exhibit of your conduct.
    You had said :"The non-Cal believes more in sovereignty of God than the Cal."

    That's why I said in reply that you are the court jester. If anything, non-Cals here complain that Calvinists over-emphasize the sovereignyty of God.
    You had said that in the eyes of Calvinists God is not really omnipotent. And therefore in reply I stated that you are noted for your nonsensical remarks.
    And you claim to have been in the ministry for more than 40 years? Your unbecoming conduct on the BB is infamous. You need to change your ways. You can't help yourself --only God can.
     
  19. PreachTony

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    DHK - Thanks, but it's alright. Since I recently made comments in opposition to Calvinism I've been called a drunk (Icon questioned if I had been drinking), I've been told that I "hate God" (Icon again), and I've been told that I have a venomous heart and I've inadequately studied the Word. I'm okay with this. They said much worse about my Lord and Savior.

    I do worship God, and I worship the God that I find revealed in scripture and I find in the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I do not see the God Calvinism claims to see, but according to the Cals that because I'm not sound in my Biblical study. Which is what it seems so often to come down to with them. "You don't know God because you haven't properly studied." It doesn't matter how much of your life you've dedicated to studying the Word and praying for the Spirit's guidance, unless you believe in their God you simply have not studied enough. Thankfully not all Cals act this way.
     
  20. DHK

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    The attack given here demonstrates why one should ignore your posts completely. Like our election just under way in Canada, they consist mostly of "attack ads," mean and ugly.
     
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