The Eternal Subjugation of Christ to the Father.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 12strings, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is How I read 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (My Notes underlined and bracketed):

    Then comes the end, when he [Christ...see previous verses] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he [Christ] must reign until he [Christ] has put all his [Christ's] enemies under his [Christ's] feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God [the Father] has put all things in subjection under his [Christ's] feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he [God the Father] is excepted who put all things in subjection under him [Christ]. When all things are subjected to him [not sure which one this refers to, but not sure it matters too much for this discussion], then the Son himself will also be subjected to him [God the Father] who put all things in subjection under him [Christ], that God [again, not sure, but probably refering to the Father again] may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

    So read this way...I see God the Son (Christ) being eternally in subjection to God the Father for all eternity. This is a subjection in role, not in levels of God-hood or in value as God.

    1. Do you see any problems with reading the passage this way?

    2. Do you see any practical lessons we can draw from this? I see this as helpful in discussing the role of women in the home and the church, because one can point to Jesus and see one who was equal with God the father in value and Godhood, but who willingly embraced his role as one who was "sent" by the father to accomplish what they both desired. Affirming that men and women does not deny women's equal standing as human beings; just as affirming that Christ submits to his heavenly Father does not deny his co-equal deity. It is God-like to rule over things, and it is God-like to submit to authorities God places in our lives (Bosses, parents, pastors, husbands, Governments).

    (P.S. 1 - My wife would affirm everything I have written here)
    (P.S. 2 - Any wise man will submit to his wife's wisdom at least 90% of the time)
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Scripture tells us: Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    J. L. Dagg [a prominent Southern Baptist of the 19th century] in his Manual of Theology [pages 253-257] discusses the roles of the Triune God in the Covenant of Grace as follows:

    According to the covenant arrangement, the Son appeared in human nature, in the form of a, servant; and, after obeying unto death, was exalted by the Father to supreme dominion. The Holy Spirit also is revealed as acting in a subordinate office, being sent by the Father and by the Son. The Father alone is not presented as acting in a subordinate office; but appears as sustaining the full authority of the Godhead, sending the Son, giving him a people to be redeemed, prescribing the terms, accepting the service, rewarding and glorifying the Son, and sending the Holy Spirit. In all this the Father appears as the representative of the Godhead, in its authority and majesty. The Son also sustains a representative character. The promise of eternal life was made, before the world began, to the people of God, in him as their representative. The reconciliation between God and men is provided for by the covenant engagement between the Father and the Son; the Father acting as the representative of the Godhead, and the Son as the representative and surety of his people. The Holy Spirit concurs in this arrangement, and takes his part in the work, in harmony with the other persons of the Godhead. His peculiar office is necessary to complete the plan, and to reward the obedience of the Son by the salvation of his redeemed people. The promises of the Father to the Son include the gift of the Holy Spirit; and, therefore, the sending of the Spirit is attributed to the Son; [John 16:7] and sometimes to the Father at the petition of the Son.[John 14:16]

    In this order of operation, inferiority of nature is not implied, in the subordination of office to which the Son and the Spirit voluntarily consent. The fulness of the Godhead dwells in each of the divine persons, and renders the fulfillment of the covenant infallibly sure, in all its stipulations. The Holy Spirit, in the execution of his office, dwells in believers; but he brings with him the fulness of the Godhead, so that God is in them, and they are the temple of God, and filled with the fulness of God. The Son or Word, in the execution of his office, becomes the man Jesus Christ; but the fulness of the Godhead dwells in him; so that, in his deepest humiliation he is God manifest in the flesh, God over all, blessed for ever.

    I like what Dagg has to say. I believe any subordination within the Godhead is only temporary, not eternal. Jesus Christ tells us in John 17:4, 5:

    4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


    glorify thou me with thine own self. No subordination here!
     
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you minus all the scripture found in revelation about the Lamb you can come with all kinds of conclusions. It is talking about the Lamb of God Christ the body and soul of Christ. The man who brings life from the dead.We will be able to see the scars we were healed by. We will all be one Spirit so God will be all in all. Praise Jesus.
     
    #3 psalms109:31, Jul 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2012
  4. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Too often people confuse the economic subordination with ontological subordination in the Trinity. I think your reading helps with this.

    Christ, and the Holy Spirit too, remains totally and completely part of the Trinity in essence and Person. However in their expression with humanity they willfully choose roles subordinate to the Father to accomplish the unified glory and goals of the Trinity.

    This is a good conversation. :)
     
  5. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yes, 12 Strings, I read it just like you do, except I think it is clear that "when all things are subjected to Him" refers to Christ, and at the last God refers to the triune Yahweh, rather than the Father. In other words, when the action is subjection, the three Persons have differing roles as explained in the passage, but at the end of the day, then all three Persons are "all in all."

    Viewed eternally, the three Persons exist such that they operate as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but they are eternally One God, Yahweh, so no Person is in essence in subjection to any other.
     
  6. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not disagreeing with you but I have a couple questions.
    One the Son is already in subjection to the Father.
    Two this is in the middle of a correction about a false teaching that had crept into the church about resurrection and baptism. So how does this work its way into that scenario?
     
  7. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    If it is temporary, how do you explain the passage in the OP?
     
  8. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. So do you agree or disagree with what I said?

    2. "we will all be one spirit?" Are you refering to some sort of loss of individuality?
     
  9. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. (not a question by the way) I would say you are right, that was certainly the case when Jesus was on earth, and I would say his intercessory role points to God the Father as the ultimate judge that needs to be interceded to...THe father is not interceding to the son...although in Revelation it seems Jesus is the Judge.

    2. I think the main point is that Jesus WILL defeat all of his enemies and rule with God the Father forever, a correction to those who may fear that Christ and themselves would not and are not ever raised.
     
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    The soul is what brings us individuality while the Spirit makes us one. God will be all in all without us losing our individuality. The soul is like a jar being filled with our experience making us who we are as individuals. While the Spirit joins all together like a tree with all the individuals parts
     
  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    The meaning of the parable of the Good Samaritan for John Calvin was, instead, that "compassion, which an enemy showed to a Jew, demonstrates that the guidance and teaching of nature are sufficient to show that man was created for the sake of man. Hence it is inferred that there is a mutual obligation between all men." In other writings, Calvin pointed out that people are not born merely for themselves, but rather "mankind is knit together with a holy knot ... we must not live for ourselves, but for our neighbors."



    I do think even here on earth we are knit together. We might not even see the end results, but what we say and do, do effect others and has a ripple effect around us and can effect further than we can imagine.
     
    #11 psalms109:31, Jul 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2012
  12. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    These statements I believe to be biblical. Scripture says God will be all in all. I'm not sure exactly that that means, but I do believe we will remain individuals. and yet we are to be "one" in the spirit, and one in Christ, and will be perfectly in heaven. Many individuals with one goal of giving glory to God.

    These statements do not seem to have biblical ground to back them up. Are you saying each person does not have an individual Spirit...but only a soul that gets unified with God's spirit?

    Either way, I don't thing there is biblical grounds for a hard distincition between the soul and the spirit of a person...They are used interchangeably enough that it seems they are speaking of the same thing; the immaterial part of each human being.
     
  13. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    There must be a difference, or they wouldn't be mentions as two different words. I have never seen anyone with a clear understanding from scripture what these two are. If anyone could it would be nice to hear from others or make another thread.

    I see the spirit our spirit is what joins us all together and is the life force around us that makes the air and every living thing earthly alive. This force has a piece in all of us our spirit every molecule and adam moves because of this spirit. This spirit is separated from God for sin. The soul is filled with our experience making us unique difference from other living things. The soul gives us individuality not life the spirit who makes it alive in an earthy sense.

    See what we want is God to save our spirit, but the goal of our faith is the salvation of our soul, who we are as individuals. If our spirit is saved and not our soul then who we are is not saved.

    I can understand why people would want the soul and spirit to be the same.
     
    #13 psalms109:31, Jul 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2012
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Very Nice link OLDR- Dagg has a good handle on it.

    Jesus completed his covenant work on the cross.....His mediatorial role had work assigned to it.He as we learn in Hebrews;
    What the three Holy and Divine persons did in time will stand rock steady for all eternity.Jesus forever as mediator of the everlasting Covenant......By His person and work.
     
    #14 Iconoclast, Jul 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2012
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    John F. MacArthur in his book Charismatic Chaos [page 94] writes on the interpretation of Scripture by Scripture as follows [emphasis mine.]:

    The Reformers used the expression scriptura scripturam interpretatur, or ‘Scripture interprets Scripture.’ By this they meant that obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones. If the Bible is God's Word, it must be consistent with itself. No part of the Bible can contradict any other part. One divine Author, the Holy Spirit, inspired the whole Bible, so it has one marvelous, supernatural unity. The synthesis principle puts Scripture together with Scripture to arrive at a clear, consistent meaning. If we hold to an interpretation of one passage that does not square with something in another passage, one of the passages is being interpreted incorrectly, or possibly both of them. The Holy Spirit does not disagree with himself. And the passages with obvious meanings should interpret the more arcane [obscure] ones. One should never build a doctrine on a single obscure or unclear text. When I teach a passage of Scripture, I often guide the congregation to different parts of the Bible to show how the passage under study fits into the total context of Scripture. ​

    The passage you present in the OP, to support your premise of the eternal subjugation of the Second Person of the Triune Godhead, is one that John MacArthur might call arcane or obscure, certainly open to differing interpretations. {May I say that subjugation, to make submissive or subdue, is an extremely poor choice of words.}

    There are Scripture that clearly show that the the subordination of the Incarnate God was one of office not of person. In the following passage the Incarnate God states sufficiently clear for all to understand:

    John 10:30. I and my Father are one.

    In another passage Jesus Christ tells us:

    John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Here Jesus Christ calls Himself I AM the words that God used to identify Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:14: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

    The Incarnate God, Jesus Christ, is clearly not subordinate to God the Father so your OP is faulty to say the least!
     
  16. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    I meant atoms not adams

    Ezekiel 18 :
    30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    When we get a new heart a new Spirit the Holy Spirit,He will give us eternal life not like our spirit that will leave us in a grave to eternal condemnation.
     
    #16 psalms109:31, Jul 8, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2012
  17. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. I attempted to make clear in my OP that I am speaking, like you of the subordination in terms of Office (I used the word "role") and NOT in person or Godhood. No one argues that Jesus did not temporarily subject himself to the Father during his earthly ministry. I'm arguing that 1 Cor. 15 gives us strong reason to thin this is not a temporary arrangement, but rather an eternal one that will go on forever, though Christ is Equal with the Father in Deity, such that in Phil. 2 God (Father) has raised Christ's name above every name. So it can admittedly go both ways, father glorifying son and son glorifying father, but this passage seems to say that when all is done, All will be subject to Christ...except for God the Father, who is the one who put everything under Christ.

    2. I don't see the problem with the word subjugation. All major translations use the words "made subject" or "subjected" in this passage. "the Son Himself also will be subjected..." What's the problem with saying that?

    3. Scripture does interpret scripture, but the way to do that is not to look at one passage and say that it disproves the other passage without interacting with it.
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    The Scripture I posted contrasted with the passage from 1 Corinthians 15 clearly show that there is no eternal subordination, much less subjugation, in the Godhead. If that were true then our doctrine of God would all be wrong. Consider the following Scripture:

    Philippians 2:5-11
    5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


    In the Incarnation the "Word of God" humbled Himself but, as the Apostle Paul tells us: Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Then we read in John 17:1-5:

    1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
    2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
    3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


    Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. That does not sound like eternal subordination to me, especially if you really believe the Doctrine of the Triune Godhead.
     
  19. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    -So am I to understand that your only response to 1 Corinthians 15 is that the passage is too obscure, and that because other passages SEEM to contrast with it, that we must throw it out?

    -What do you say to THIS PASSAGE? It says: "Then the Son himself will also be subjected to him..." Sounds like subjection. If not, what better word should we substitute for the biblical word?

    -I'm not disagreeing with this at all, I'm not sure why you think I am. The whole point of my OP is that Jesus Christ is willingly Submissive to his heavenly Father, EVEN THOUGH they are equal in Godhood.

    -The Doctrine of the Trinity brings up a good point. There are passages that say there is only One God. There are also passages that point to the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit each being God. If we were to follow the scriptural principle you are proposing here, we would have to ignore whichever passages were more obscure, and either be left with Simply One God, or 3 Gods...no trinity.

    -Perhaps this question will help: When, in eternity past, the plan of salvation was formulated...could it have been ANY of the persons of the God-head that SENT any other person of the Godhead to be incarnated and die for sins?
    OR...(what I believe) were the offices/roles of Father, Son, & Holy Spirit already in place from eternity past, such that the Father, by very nature of being the Father, sent the son, who by nature of being the Son carried out the will of the Father?
    ...Remember: "The Father SENT the son to be savior of the world." It doesn't say they drew straws, or had a discussion about which person of the Godhead would be sent...It simply says one sent the other.
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    You will understand what you wish since you interpret what I posted as "throwing out Scripture"! Nonsense! Neither did I say it was too obscure. I simply said there are other Scripture that would deny the eternal subordination of God the Son.

    The OP asked the question about the eternal subjugation of God the Son. I have posted Scripture which I claim disputes that as nonsensical. If you choose to believe that then feel free but again you are ignoring more explicit Scripture that shows otherwise.

    The subordination of God the Son was for only for the period of the Incarnation!

    You say:
    That is correct. These passages are not obscure and the doctrine of the Trinity is perfectly compatible with those Scripture.

    You need to understand that I did not propose the Synthesis Principle - scriptura scripturam interpretatur, or ‘Scripture interprets Scripture - the Reformers did! You are jumping off the deep end by stating the following nonsense:
    I repeat: the passages that lead to the doctrine of the Trinity are not obscure, at least not to me.

    Methinks you are either trying to throw a clod in the churn, are dubious about the revelation of the Triune Godhead, or do not understand the nature of the Covenant of Grace. Spurgeon had an interesting way of putting the covenant of Grace that might help you! I will present it in a subsequent post.
     

Share This Page

Loading...