The extent of God’s promise to the Jews

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by stilllearning, Sep 25, 2009.

  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    As we all know, God’s promise to Israel and God’s promise to the Church, are clearly different:
    (1) God promises to Israel, are physical and earthly;
    (2) And God’s promises to the Church, are Spiritual and heavenly:
    --------------------------------------------------
    With this in mind, do you think the Jews ever be glorified as we will be?


    This question came to mind, as I was studying the verse.........
    Isaiah 45:25
    “In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.”
     
  2. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    quote: As we all know, God’s promise to Israel and God’s promise to the Church, are clearly different:
    -------------------------------------------

    Not everyone, especially scripture, teaches this idea.

    The church is the Israel of God, the continuation of His promises to His people in redeeming grace and the Kingdom of God.

    The story of redemption begins in Genesis and is completed with the second advent of Jesus and the resurrection of the believers.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi Jim1999

    You know, when I typed the words, “As we all know”, I forgot about those anti-dispensationalests, that are around.

    You may be one; That’s Ok.
    --------------------------------------------------
    You said.......
    On the surface, this sounds like “sound Bible teaching”;
    But it really isn’t, because it overlooks the hundreds of clues, God gives us in His Word, that make it clear, that the saints in the New Testament, are in a different class, than the saints of the Old Testament.

    Here is just one example, off the top of my head......
    Luke 7:28
    “For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

    There wasn’t anything wrong with John the Baptist; He was just an Old Testament Saint, and the least in the New Testament, are greater than him.
    --------------------------------------------------
    But, as I have said many times before, I have not arrived yet, and I am still open to correction, if you use Scripture.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,558
    Likes Received:
    273
    for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3:3

    13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12

    28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3

    11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3

    12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10

    Passages like the following lead me to believe that there will be a general incoming of the Jews someday to Christianity:

    12 Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    15 For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    23And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Ro 11
     
  5. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Good morning kyredneck

    Nice to hear from you.
    --------------------------------------------------
    You said.......
    Thank you for refreshing my memory, about Romans 11; And I think that you are right.
    --------------------------------------------------
    You also brought up, the main area that confuses people about this issue.

    I remember as a young Christian, being taught by my pastor, that one of the first rules of correctly interpreting the Bible, is to determine who a passage is talking to or about.

    And with that in mind, there are only three kinds of people referred to in the Bible;
    (1) Jews
    (2) Gentiles (Everyone that is not a Jew)
    (3) The Church of God: (Being made up of both Jews & Gentiles)
    ------------------------
    And over the last 25 or 30 years, I have witnessed this rule, to be true.
    --------------------------------------------------
    The idea, that somehow “the Church” existed way back in Genesis, comes from the mis-application of these passages you brought up.......


    It is clear, that in these passages, the LORD is talking to and about, “the Church”.

    And certainly within “The Church”, there are no Jews nor Gentiles, because we have all be baptized into one body.
    --------------------------------------------------

    I take it from your handle, that you are redneck from Kentucky;
    (The Lord can forgive you for that.)

    I happen to be a redneck from Oklahoma.


    Nice talking to you; hope to hear from you again.
     
  6. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,147
    Likes Received:
    322
    Utimately both redeemed Israel (those believers before Jesus Christ came in the flesh) and the Church will be one body though distinct from one another in the New Jerusalem (aka: the eternal state).

    Revelation 21
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
    14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Until then it seems that God has also made a distinction in time as well as eternity:

    1 Corinthians 10
    31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
    32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

    HankD​
     
  7. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Chronicles 16:15-18
    15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; 16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; 17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, 18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;


    David believed the Abrahamic Covenant wasn't jeopardize due to the sins of Israel, it was an everlasting covenant.

    Peter in Acts3:12-15, Peter believed the Abrahamic Covenant was still in effect.

    Paul indicated that the unsaved Jew was still in the Abrahamic Covenant. Romans 11:28-29.
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,971
    Likes Received:
    128
    I think your theology is getting in the way of what Scriptures say.

    First I'd like you to provide us with the "promise" to Israel.

    Then, the "promise" to the Church.

    Sure they're different but they can't be classified as simply as you have done.

    Rob
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,558
    Likes Received:
    273
    Yall believe what you want, but I assure you with the utmost confidence that there will never, ever be a return to the weak and beggarly elements of the law:

    .....Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever..... Mt 21:19

    20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
    21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
    23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18
     
  10. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, I agree.

    God made many promises to the Jews through Abraham and through David. The church is a participant in SOME, even many of those promises, but not all.
     
  11. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is the Kingdom of God and when was it established? Who makes up this Kingdom of God?

    I think some want to divide the continuity of scripture and the working of God in His people. The Bible is not the history of Israel. It is the history of God dealing with His people, the twice-born community.

    On Abraham, he was promised a family and nations as successors (Gen 13:16) and the land of Canaan for them (15:17ff)> he never personally owned any land and had to buy a plot for Sarah (23:4). The confirmation of the covenant was male circumcision (17:1ff); and before Isaac was conceived (18:1ff) and after the near-sacrifice of his son (22:17f.) See also Rom 4:3ff for the continuity of the Abrahamic covenant in the church. It was Abraham's faith which leads to justification by God. His obedience was a sign of grace and not a sign of redemption within any one nation. Why do we not circumcise only males in the church to-day?

    Cheers,

    Jim

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  12. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hello Deacon & swaimj

    Thank you, for keeping me honest.

    Although this concept can be stated in simple terms, as I have done;
    It is always better for me, to back up what I believe with Scripture.


    That will be forthcoming!
     
  13. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
    Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
    Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
     
  15. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,147
    Likes Received:
    322
    Hi Jim, while I agree that there is a continuity in Scripture concerning the people of God and the Kingdom of God, I would manitain that there are different "house rules" or "economies" within the continuing manifestation of the "kingdom of God" on earth.

    I speak as one who identifies himself as a dispensationalist for a matter of the convenience of a label, though I don't like the label "dispensationalist as there are many in this camp who go overboard and even wrest the Scriptures (IMO).

    I'm not sure what your point is but these differences of house rules are why we don't meet regularly on the Sabbath, we eat "unclean" foods, etc.

    Personally, I wouldn't say that these are a break in the overall continuity of the Scripture and His ultimate Glorification.

    If we concentrate on these house rules only then yes, there appears to be a "break".

    That the the OT saints under the law of Moses were saved by grace is a given (at least for me), they had commandment to keep these precepts of the law as a matter of obedience.

    In a similar matter as the NT ordinances (two of the "new" house rules) do not save anyone or maintain sanctifying grace, neither did the keeping of the law of Moses, but it was kept as are the ordinances of baptism and communion as a matter of obedience.

    No matter what the reason we personally give for these differences, the age of grace and its requirements and those of the law must now carefully be kept distinct and not confounded. This automatically makes a distinction between Israel and the Church.

    Jesus gave us a parable concerning this "break" from the law of Moses (the Old Covenant which is to "vanish away") and the indwelling/leading of the Holy Spirit in the age of grace (the New Covenant)...

    Luke 5
    36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
    37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
    38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
    39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.​

    I don't think it a coincidence that the very next chapter in Luke is the account of the disciples being accused of breaking the Sabbath with Jesus permission.

    So, I agree on the over all higher level of the continuity of the Scriptures while maintaining that there are different economies or house rules in the different temporal historical ages until we leave the time continuum and enter the eternal state.

    HankD
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,558
    Likes Received:
    273
    Concerning those 'house rules' and different economies Hank:

    Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10
     
  17. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,147
    Likes Received:
    322
    OK, I assume you are adding confirmation to my post?

    In any event we are told by Talmudic scholars that there are 613 mitzvout (rules) in the Torah (1st 5 books) which should be kept.

    However many of these rules cannot be kept because the temple in the earthly city of Jerusalem does not exist.

    Even at that, I have a friend, an orthodox Jew, who lives the Talmudic mitzvouth 24/7. Everything he says and does has to be filtered through this law. A yoke indeed.

    HankD
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,558
    Likes Received:
    273
    Cool. Who knows. When your friend sees you and the freedom you have in Christ, His yoke may yet serve to drive him to Christ, as it was intended to do..........
     
  19. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,536
    Likes Received:
    13
    Isn't that verse a Spiritual promise? This from the same chapter;
    Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
    I believe Israel is still chosen. There are many Jews who are in the church and believing in the same Jesus as Gentiles believe in. There is no longer any difference between the Jew and the Greek.

    MB
     
  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eph. 2:11-18

    (11)"Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "uncircumcision" by the so-called "circumcision" which is performed in the flesh by human hands---

    (12) remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

    (13) But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    (14) For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

    (15) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

    (16) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

    (17) And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;

    (18) For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father....... (NAS version. emphasis mine)

    It is clear from this passage of scripture that there is not a separate future for Israel and the church.

    Both Jews and Gentiles have been made "one new man" by the work of Jesus on the cross..., by the shedding of His blood. They have been "reconciled" and "peace" has been established.

    To believe there is a separate future for Israel and the church is to believe the work of Jesus on the cross must be undone. That the peace that has been established is to be broken by God. That the reconcilation that has taken place by His work on the cross must be abolished.

    To believe there is a separate future for Israel and the church is to believe the "one new man" that was established by Jesus's work on the cross to bring both groups into the presence of God by Holy Spirit is to be killed; and two separate men will emerge.... undoing the work of Jesus on the cross.

    Such beliefs are slanderous to the work of Jesus on the cross; discounting the power of His shed blood; and makes a mockery of the eternal plan of God to bring His chosen people to salvation.

    Scripture is clear, if you will accept it.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #20 canadyjd, Sep 27, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2009

Share This Page

Loading...