The Failed experiment with Socialism in the U.K.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Bible-boy, Dec 16, 2008.

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  1. Bible-boy

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    For those who think that Socialism is the correct path for the U.S. in today’s world let’s review the effects of 30+ years of attempted Socialism in the United Kingdom.

    According to Margaret Thatcher in her autobiography, The Downing Street Years,

     
  2. Bible-boy

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    Thatcher quote continued:

    America had better take a lesson from this wise woman quick fast and in a hurry. Our decline into Socialism is not just the fault of the Liberal/Socialist Democrats. Just like the “conservative” Tory Party in the U.K. our “conservative” GOP has stood by and done nothing to reverse our slide into Socialism. It is time for true conservatives to wake up and demand a return to real conservative principles and policies.
     
  3. Bible-boy

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    What, no comments about the disastrous failure of "democratic socialism" over a 30+ year socialist experiment in the U.K.?
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I would like for some of our UK members, who have experienced these 'failures' to help us here. The rest us really don't know except for the words of Mrs Thatcher.
     
  5. Bible-boy

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    The economic history of that period bears out what she says. Are you suggesting that she was somehow less than truthful? In fact, Winston Churchill's, History of the Second World War: The Gathering Storm, Vol. I agrees with her regarding the the failure of the Labour Party's Socialist agenda from the end of WWI up until he was elected at the outbreak of WWII. I'm sure I can find other reference sources if you'd like.
     
    #5 Bible-boy, Dec 17, 2008
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  6. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Please don't cast false aspersions. Mrs Thatcher is one of my 'heroes' bit she only expresses one perspective, and she wrote this 15 years ago. I think the best source for us today would be some of our brethren in the UK who have survived the failure to express how this failure affected their lives.
     
    #6 NaasPreacher (C4K), Dec 17, 2008
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  7. Bible-boy

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    Here is another source that reveals how the U.K. headed down the path of democratic socialism following WWII. One review of this book says that it is considered the established standard textbook on contemporary British political history since the end of World War Two:

     
  8. Bible-boy

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    I'm not casting anything. I'm just trying to figure out why it seemed that you were doubting the historical economic evidence that Mrs. Thatcher provided as the background cause for the Tory Party's victory in the 1979 election.
     
    #8 Bible-boy, Dec 17, 2008
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  9. Bible-boy

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    Margaret Thatcher spelled out the reasons why Britain was known as the "Sick man of Europe" during the 1960s and 1970s in the above quoted material. Here is a bit of a quote from a present day Economist article that is addressing the current "Sick man of Europe," Italy. It provides a little history of the use of the term:

     
    #9 Bible-boy, Dec 17, 2008
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  10. JustChristian

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    We already have socialism. How long does it take for you to understand that?
     
  11. Bible-boy

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    Here is Business Week Online article from 2002 that was critical of the Tony Blair’s Labour Government. Note what it has to say about the “Thatcher dividend” and reasons for the decline in the British economy due to the typical Labour Party socialist policies of higher taxes and greater regulation.

     
  12. Bible-boy

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    I fully understand it. I am trying to get the people who read this site to understand why it is bad for the country and motivate them to demand that our government leaders turn away from it as opposed to asking for more government hand outs. Like I said at the conclusion of my second post in this thread, America had better take a lesson from this wise woman (Margaret Thatcher) quick fast and in a hurry. Our decline into Socialism is not just the fault of the Liberal/Socialist Democrats. Just like the “conservative” Tory Party in the U.K. our “conservative” GOP has stood by and done nothing to reverse our slide into Socialism. It is time for true conservatives to wake up and demand a return to real conservative principles and policies.
     
    #12 Bible-boy, Dec 17, 2008
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  13. Bible-boy

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    I provided a few more references, in addition to Mrs. Thatcher's witness, and a couple of British Economists thoughts on the matter. So, what do all the pro-Socialists on the BB have to say about the failed 30+ year U.K. experiment with decomcratic socialism and why we should continue to give it a try here in the U.S.?
     
  14. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    How about Matt and our other UK members? How has the failure of the socialist experiment that Mrs Thatcher so eloquently writes about impacted your lives?
     
  15. Magnetic Poles

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    Let us assume for the sake of discussion that this experiment in socialism is a total disaster. It is a false leap of logic to assume that every socialist program would also be a disaster. The problem could be in implementation rather than concept. It is also possible that in the intervening 15 years, they have worked out the bugs in the system, and it is working far better after fine tuning.
     
  16. Bible-boy

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    That of course is a possibility. However, it is not so great a leap in logic so as to suggest that it is a non sequitur. The economic history of every western European socialist state and complete failure of Soviet style communism bears witness to the fact the socialism and the nationalization of industry does not work.

    As you suggest in the intervening 15 years in the U.K. the "Thatcher dividend" has worked out many of the problems because the government privatized most of the formerly nationalized industries, lowered taxes, and deregulated industry. However, as evidenced by the December 2002 article quoted above the Labour Party under Tony Blair began to revert to its old socialist model and increased taxes and regulatory red tape and the British economy began to suffer. Socialist principles of government and their enacted policies simply do not work and are bad for the nation.

    C4K, what happened to the Irish economy when its government cut its formerly high business tax rate to one of the lowest in the world?
     
    #16 Bible-boy, Dec 18, 2008
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  17. Bible-boy

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    The question actually is not "How the failure has impacted U.K. residents lives?" The problem with depending on such anecdotal evidence is that we could equally produce both pro-Labour Party socialist commentators and pro-Tory Party free market commentators. Then we just end up arguing with he said/she said stuff and going in circles.

    The real question is, "Did the 30+ year U.K. experiment with democrat socialism result in economic failure?" Likewise, did the Tory Party's economic reforms result in a stronger U.K. economy or a weaker one? I think the recorded historic empirical evidence is clear.
     
    #17 Bible-boy, Dec 18, 2008
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  18. Magnetic Poles

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    I don't know that I would agree that every Euro state that has implemented some degree of socialism has been a total failure. Even here, some things are socialized. There are certain services that can be better provided collectively than individually. I don't have my own army, navy, police department, highways, post office, etc. The question becomes which things make for a better society when owned by the public rather than the private sector (or private sector with public oversight and regulation). What I am not a proponent of is public ownership of the factors of production. I don't want the government making my pants, for example But I do think there is a benefit to democracy to have a healthy populous, thus I favor some form of universal healthcare. What form that would take is open to many options, but guess what? We have 50 states where we could try out several different models to see what actually works out the best. We don't have to roll out whole hog at once.
     
  19. Bible-boy

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    No one is attempting to make that claim. I am talking about the western European states that have gone down the road of full blown democratic socialism (like the U.K. between 1945 and 1979, or Germany in the 1990s) or the failed Soviet style communist states (Russia, Romania, Poland, the Czechs etc.).


    I agree, except about the healthcare issue. The medical field is an industry and the government ought to be hands off when it comes to U.S. industry (other than to pass legislation making it illegal to fail to provide medical care based on one's ability to pay, which is already the case here in the U.S.).
     
    #19 Bible-boy, Dec 18, 2008
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  20. Magnetic Poles

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    Indeed it is an industry, but it ought not be. Something as expensive and vital should not be looked at as purely an industry, IMO. But you are entitled to your view on the subject, and it is a good one to debate. I believe that we ultimately will get universal care in the U.S., but what form it takes could fall anywhere on a very large continuum.
     
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