The fallen nature of Man

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    I want to address just one aspect of the fallen nature of man in this thread and that is the fact that it is the same problem since the fall in Genesis three and has not changed from that time till now.

    Some on this forum hold to the erroneous belief that man is not conceived in the womb in a state of spiritual separation from God. However, by passing that argument for the moment, what I want to deal with is what should be common ground. Since Genesis all who have come to age where they can discern right from wrong have individually rebelled against God and are sinners and thus at least from that point it must be admitted they are spiritually separated from God and thus spiritually dead.

    1. Most of the New Testament passages dealing with the sinful condition of man are quotations from the Old Testament - hence the same problem before and after the cross.

    2. Spiritual death is spirtual separation from God and thus spiritual union is spiritual LIFE both before and after the cross.

    I am suggesting that man has had the very same problem before and after the cross and there has never been but one Biblical solution for that human condition. There never has been but one Savior, one way, one gospel, one blood of the everlasting covenant only made manifest in the first coming of Christ but promised and applied by faith before the cross since the garden of Eden.

    Furthermore, where there is no regeneration/spiritual life there is no spiritual life and where there is no spiritual life there is no possibility of progressive sanctification as progressive sanctification cannot originate out of spiritual death.

    Furthermore, where there is no regeneration there is no justification as God cannot possibly justified the spiritually dead in tresspasses and sins.

    Furthermore, where there is no regeneration/spiritual life there can be no remission of sins as God cannot remit the sins of the spiritually dead in tresspasses and sins as it is those very sins that SEPARATE man from God which is SPIRITUAL DEATH.
     
  2. percho

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    I agree with everything you wrote. And per above had not Jesus the one without sin, not been born and have died and have been resurrected from the dead, all before the cross and all after the cross would die in their sin and there would be no existence nor rememberence by them after death.

    Is that correct?

    If there had been no Christ once life had run it's course that would have been it. Or as stated in Gen. 2:17 Dying thou dost die.

    The sin of Adam brought the before mentioned death to all men whether, all who have come to age where they can discern right from wrong, or not.

    We are born in a state of which physical death would forever seperate us from God. But thanks to God, the Christ did come in the flesh.

    However: Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Whether living or dead at his appearing.)

    1 Thess 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


    Is my understanding incorrect?
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    spiritual death is not cessation of existence but separation from God. The second death is not cessation of existence but eternal separation from God in conscious existence.
     
  4. Winman

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    I am one who does not believe a person is born spiritually dead, and I have provided many scriptures to support this in the past. Ecc 7:29 says God has made man upright, but they have sought many inventions. I believe all men when they mature to understand right from wrong will willingly and knowingly sin and spiritually die. This spiritual death means to be condemned, under judgment, separated from God. I do not believe this makes a man unable to believe.

    For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The problem has always been the same. However, I do not think these verses apply to little babies or small children, I do not believe God holds children accountable until they are mature enough to understand right from wrong (Deu 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11, Rom 7:9).
    Not necessarily. I do not believe OT saints were regenerated by the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit was not given until after Jesus rose from the dead. I personally believe Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to those saints who were waiting in Abraham's bosom. At this point they were regenerated.

    However, the moment they believed they were justified and forgiven their sins. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham when he believed God. In this sense Abraham was spiritually alive, that is, he was no longer condemned as a sinner.

    The only solution for any sinner is to believe on Jesus Christ. OT saints did not necessarily know Jesus's name or how he would die for our sins, but they believed in the Christ or Messiah that would save them promised by God.

    Spiritual death is not like physical death. Spiritual death means to be condemned. It means to be held captive by sin, sentenced to death. It is like a person on death row.

    You have it backwards, there is no regeneration until there is first justification. It is sin that causes death. Until a person is forgiven their sins they cannot possibly be spiritually alive. This is what all Calvinists cannot seem to understand, until you are forgiven your sins, you are DEAD IN SIN. Faith MUST precede regeneration.

    Nope, you have it backwards. Until a person believes and is justified they cannot be spiritually alive, they cannot be regenerated. Until you first believe, you are held captive by sin, you are condemned. You are not free, you are not spiritually alive. Only when all your sins are forgiven are you spiritually alive and regenerated.
     
    #4 Winman, Dec 6, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2012
  5. The Biblicist

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    Here is the crux of the issue. Spiritual death is like physical death in one aspect. It is a SEPARATION. In physical death the immaterial nature of man is SEPARATED from his material nature. Spiritual death is SEPARATION from God between the human spirit (Isa. 59:1-2; Eph. 2:1) and the Spirit of God and thus alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18). In direct contrast spiritual life is UNION between the human spirit and the Holy Spirit.

    You have Abraham justified and thus forgiven and counted righteous before God but still spiritually separated from God in spirit and thus without spiritual life. There is no spiritual life possible for any human being who is not in spiritual union with God. However, Paul has Abraham "in Christ" (Gal. 3:17) and one must be "created in Christ" by new birth (Eph. 2:1,6,10).
     
  6. percho

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    I agree with everything you wrote. And per above had not Jesus the one without sin, not been born and have died and have been resurrected from the dead, all before the cross and all after the cross would die in their sin and there would be no existence nor rememberence by them after death.

    I understand Jesus the Christ was.

    The question is in the context of had he not been born into the world.

    Is there any existence for man outside of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ from death?

    Did God create man, that if he sinned, to live forever in the outer darkness of hell fire suffering forever torment, unless depending upon your outlook, one is chosen by God or one by faith choses to except Jesus as his saviour, thus escaping the torment forever.

    Or did he create man to die when he sinned? Yet before he created him he declared the Lamb of God would die allowing life after death to be given to the man he was going to create if the Lamb was obedient unto that death?
     
  7. Winman

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    I would agree that spiritual death means separation. However, no one received the Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified (John 7:39).

    I believe that the OT saints were held captive in Abraham's bosom for this very cause. They were not spiritually joined to Christ because the Spirit was not yet given. I personally believe Jesus descended into Abraham's bosom and gave the Spirit to those OT saints. At this point Jesus was able to ascend with these saints and they were brought into the presence of God. The scripture I believe supports this is;

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    The part I have highlighted in blue is where I believe Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to those OT saints that had been held captive in Abraham's bosom. He then ascended with these saints to heaven. I believe Abraham's bosom is now empty and all believers go directly to heaven when they die now.






    God imputed righteousness to Abraham, he was no longer a condemned sinner, but he did not have the indwelling Spirit and could not appear before God. He was not yet a partaker of the divine nature. When Jesus descended into Abraham's bosom he gave the Spirit to the OT saints and now they could ascend to heaven and appear before God. You might call this the regeneration of their spirit.

    Gal 3:17 does not say Abraham was in Christ, read again:

    Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    This verse says the covenant was confirmed before of God in Christ, but it does not say Abraham was in Christ.

    But even if there were scripture that says Abraham was in Christ, I would say this was according to God's foreknowledge. I believe God can and could foresee all persons who would believe in Jesus, although no person is in Christ until time.

    Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

    Paul said Adronicus and Junia were in Christ before him, so no one is in Christ until they believe in time. That said, I believe God can foresee those who will believe in time through his foreknowledge.
     
  8. percho

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    Does death spoken of twice in Gen 2:17 not imply that, when death comes you will be dead? When you Adam sin, it will bring to you death and when that takes place it will be forever and God removed Adam from his presence, the tree of life so Adam could not eat of God see John 6:54 and live forever as a sinner.

    I do not believe there is anything immortal about man unless God clothes him in immorality. When does that take place? Man is a mortal being in a souldish body of corruptible flesh and blood. He needs to be made, an immortal being with a spiritual body of incorruptible flesh and bone.

    What do ya'll think it means verse 18 of 1 Thes 4? So shall we ever be with the Lord.

    You will not be with the Lord until what takes place in verses 16,17 take place.

    The wages of sin death (not physical death, not spiritual death) just death.

    The gift of God is eternal life
    Through Jesus Christ our Lord

    The resurrection of Jesus Christ to life (soul and body) is the living hope that we to will have the same life Jesus was raised with. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives us cofidence and assurance of that.
     
  9. percho

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    At the next appearing of Jesus the Christ will the man resurrected and or changed; conformed to the image of his Son, (from Romans 8:29) be equal in nature to Adam at the moment of his creation, less equal to the nature of Adam at that moment of his creation or greater in nature to Adam at the moment of his creation?

    For sure we will be of greater nature of Adam after he sinned, but what about the above?

    What did he fall from?
     
  10. webdog

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    Why does the Bible use the word death (which is the ending of life, life being the hinge that is needed) and not something else if man is created apart from God? Being created dead as an oxymoron at every level. The Bible is very clear that WE are dead in OUR sins and trespasses that WE used to walk in. Doesn't get much clearer than that.
     
  11. percho

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    My understanding is; The sin of Adam brought death to all men.

    In Adam all die.

    In Christ all will be made alive.

    The judgement

    Some will be judged for eternal life and some will be judged for the second death.

    Some have been translated, that is put in a covenant relationship with God through Jesus his Son and have assurance they will not experience the second death. This is what Paul calls, in Christ. In reality they are already dead to the world and will die, yet when the resurrected Christ appears again, who is their life, they shall appear with him by resurrection/instant change. Judgement is already come to the house of God.

    Enoch was translated, covenant relationship as in the bosom of the Abraham.
    Neither will he see the second death.
     
  12. Winman

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    1 Cor 15:22 doesn't say in Adam all are dead (past tense), it says in Adam all die (future tense). You MUST be alive to die.

    Besides this, this is the only time in all of scripture that the term "in Adam" is used, and it is speaking of physical death, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians is speaking of the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death.

    Folks pull this one verse out of context and completely abuse it. It is not teaching Original Sin whatsoever.
     
  13. webdog

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    it has been appointed unto man ONCE to die. If Augustinianism is true it has been appointed unto man twice to die (one physical, one spiritual) while removing the second through Christ. That's not what the Bible teaches-
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    One must first be "in Adam" in order to be subject to death as death entered the world of mankind by ONE MAN'S SIN and death was the IMMEDIATE consequence "IN THE DAY" he ate and thus PHYSICAL death is a FUTURE consequence of IMMEDIATE spiritual death. In Genesis 2:16 "death" is comprehensive of both its IMMEDIATE consequence - spiritual separation and its ultimate future consequence - the Second Death. This comprehensive "death" is what was "passed" to all mankind (Rom. 5:12). So all mankind are "in Adam" and the proof is all die. Infants die and thus absolute proof they are "in Adam" and death has already "passed" from Adam to them. Their salvation is an altogether different subject but the fact they are subject to death and do die proves "death" has already been "passed" unto them through their connection "in Adam" by birth and they are already under "the reign of death."

    One must first be "in Christ" to partake of life. All in Adam are "dying thou shalt surely die" or in the process of dying from birth because death has been "passed" to all men and dying infants prove all are in fact "dying" or under the reign of death.

    Regeneration imparts spiritual life (Jn. 11:26) and regeneration is when one is "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:1, 6,10a). Just as spiritual death occurred immediately upon sin in the Garden so spiritual life occurs immediately at conversion to Christ and just as physical death is the culmination of spiritual death so also resurrection of the body unto life is the culimation of spiritual life. The lost are not raised unto the resurrection of LIFE but unto the resurrection of DEATH.

    The above are the facts and no amount of posturing or twisting of scriptures can overthrow what I have stated IF honesty and integrity are the criteria for properly handling the scriptures.
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Dec 8, 2012
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  15. percho

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    Bib,

    I agree with all you wrote. I have a slightly different understanding of regeneration as you and understand you would disagree with me. And that is OK with me.

    My understanding is with what the gift of the Holy Spirit does. I think you would say that is what regenerates one. Whereas I think the Holy Spirit set one apart (sancitfies) unto regeneration. That is by the Spirit one is baptized into the death of Jesus the Christ with the assurance of being resurrected from that death as he was, which I beleive to be the the regeneration when Jesus comes in the throne of his glory.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Regeneration is the opposite of spiritual death and separation. It is being brought into SPIRITUAL union with God which is life and as a future consequence indwelling sin/death is removed from the body so that the corruptible becomes incorruptible.
     
  17. percho

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    For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Eph 5:31

    Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Are they joined together by one Spirit?

    Is this wife, the church, pregnant? Is she not? But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:26

    Just when does she give birth to her spiritual children?

    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

    When will, we that are in Christ be all that we shall be?
    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    What is so important about that moment in time?
    Until that moment, can it be said that we, whether living or dead have inherited the kingdom of God?
    Have we entered the kingdom of God prior to that moment?
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    In this context Paul is merely stating that the act of marriage between a man and woman, which is a temporal thing was a type of something greater. The context is not spiritual union but sanctified submission to authority.

    The new birth is from above (Jn 3:3) or from a heavenly source which is God and he dwells in the New Jerusalem at this moment in contrast to an earthly source at earthly Jerusalem below. The new birth makes one a citizen of the HEAVENLY KINGDOM of which the New Jerusalem is the capital.

    The heavenly Jerusalem is the capital of the HEAVENLY KINGDOM and all who are born again on earth are born into that kingdom. The earthly Jerusalem , refers to the Jewish nation.

    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

    Notice what we are already "NOW are we the sons of God" meaning we have already been born from above and are citizens of the heavenly kingdom which has the new Jerusalem as its capital. Thus we are already pilgrims here and citizens there but one day the New Jerusalem will come down and the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of his Son and when that occurs so will the completion of our salvation occur when this corruptible body will put on incorruption and thus we will be like Him as he is already - he is in a resurrected glorified body but we are not yet.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    And Gods salvation is based upon His Sovereign Will and good pleasure, for its based upon Him foreknowing what he has predetermined alreadt to come to pass!
     
  20. evangelist-7

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    IMO, there are several Scriptures which teach that all humans are born with a sinful nature.

    And it is well supported in Scripture (election verses, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc.) …
    God’s grace is revealed: the faith to believe in Jesus and His gospel is a gift from God.

    So, we have this sequence of events:
    God's grace to us ---> God's gift of faith to us ---> our faith (belief) ---> our justification (salvation)

    .
     

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