The false converts

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Feb 4, 2016.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    Reading the book "The gospel assurance and warnings" by Paul David Washer. I am up to page 50 and so far he has been speaking quite a bit about the false converts. We all know that every church has false converts but I think the majority are in certain types of church's. No doubt the liberal United Methodist, American Baptists, United Church of Christ are loaded with false converts. These churches preach a "progressive Christianity" and I know from a chat I had with a pastor whom disliked my tracts that I mailed him because he did not believe in preaching on Sin, Hell, nor repentance. That man a false convert leading many astray. Also many false converts in the Charismatic Movement.

    So what say you where are the false converts located? Also I forgot to mention the Bible Belt. So many did I chat with on the streets that thought they were Christians because they went to church.
     
  2. JamesL

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    I've met many a false convert who thought they were saved because they turned from their sin, or because they confessed their sin, or because they asked forgiveness for their sin, or because they asked Jesus to come into their life, or because they gave their life to Christ.

    Their hope has been built - not upon Christ crucified, but on their own effort to appease God through some good work, some ritual, some self generated "response"

    It's putrid, really. And it's the most cancerous plague to have ever infiltrated the church - having a form of godliness....
     
  3. annsni

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    "who disliked my tracts" Who is the correct word you want here.

    But there are false converts in every church - even the most Biblical church that there could possibly be. Jesus had a false convert so how can we be any better? It's their own hearts that deceive - even under the best of teaching.
     
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  4. InTheLight

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    Dr.-Whom.jpg
     
    #4 InTheLight, Feb 4, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
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  5. evangelist6589

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    What does this have to do with the topic???? Go chase a rabbit.
     
  6. Don

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    I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. Are we just talking? Or is there some goal in mind?
     
  7. Greektim

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    YOu'll find with Evan that he rarely engages in in own posts other than saying something about rabbit-chasing.
     
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  8. evangelist6589

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    This is false!
     
  9. Rippon

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    Evan, as many have advised you --don't even mention critters in your posts. If you follow that simple suggestion you will be seen as a more mature person.
     
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  10. evangelist6589

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    It's sad to see the lack of interest in brother Paul Washers book and what he teaches in this thread which has turned into an attack on me. Come on let's get back to the original topic.
     
  11. evangelist6589

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  12. JonC

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    Evan, I am not sure that this is a proper question for us to ask but I’ll offer my two cents anyway.

    First, who are the false converts? They are people who know the gospel of Jesus Christ and claim to be saved but in fact are not. Here I am taking your thread to be speaking of those who actually profess a true gospel faith (i.e., I’m excluding those who claim a false gospel….i.e., doctrines that deny the gospel of Jesus Christ). Picture this, brother. You are a farmhand working a field and one day you start noticing weeds appearing among the crop. You bring this to the attention of the landowner. He tells you that an enemy has sown these weeds alongside the good crop. You ask if you should clear them out, but he tells you to let them grow together until the harvest lest you uproot the good crop as well (see Matthew 13).

    We do not have the information to determine the true from the false converts. Instead, we are called to judge by the spiritual fruit produced and to act in accordance with the fruit that we see. We are fruit inspectors, not botanists. If a brother acts lost, then we treat him as lost. Perhaps he is saved and God is working in his life towards repentance and he’ll return (1 Cor. 5:5). If he appears to be a brother, then we welcome him as such. But we can’t say if he is truly saved. On the Day of Judgment many will say to Jesus, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?” But still comes those dreadful words “I never knew you.” I interpret that these people truly believe that they are saved. In truth, however, they lean on their own understanding, their own theology and their own works for salvation (see Matthew 7). They have a belief, but not a saving faith. This should strike a holy fear into the minds and consciences of every believer; for since we call on God as a Father who judges impartially according to our works, we should conduct ourselves with fear during our time here on this Earth (1 Peter 1:17-18). But this is not a works based salvation. We are called out by God (we are made holy) and therefore we are to be holy (1 Peter 1:14). Our works do not make us holy; they exist because God has made us holy. My conclusion is that we cannot truly discern the salvation of another person, but we can judge by the fruit one produces.

    Second, defining “false converts” as those who acknowledge the true gospel but appear to be false believers in that gospel, where do I believe most are located? This is a matter of speculation, brother, but I believe that most are located along side us. I think that perhaps there are fewer “false converts” in many Pentecostal churches than they are in evangelical Baptist churches. I've known several Pentecostals in whose presence I am humbled by their faith in Jesus Christ, although their doctrine is filled with error and inconsistency. I've also seen many theologically correct men who seek converts to their theology as a salesman or many other religions seek converts, but their lives do not exhibit faith. But this is speculation and opinion on my part.

    There is a difference between discerning between correct doctrine and error and between discerning a believer’s faith. There is also a difference between espousing correct theology/doctrine and being saved. It is interesting to me that God, having chosen what is foolish in the world (1 Cor. 1:27) has confounded the wise who view the gospel itself as foolishness (1 Cor. 1:18). Sometimes I find it worrisome that often we appear to be striving to make the gospel message conform to the wisdom of this world, and perhaps like the Greeks seeking wisdom we are sometimes confounded by the plain and simple word of the cross (1 Cor. 1:18-31). I do not mean this to be derogatory towards studying theology and standing on firm doctrine. But sometimes I think that we may emphasize our understandings as preeminent in the eyes of God as we seek to make converts to our own theological views rather than to Christ. But what I see much too often in evangelical Christian churches is what Michael Horton referred to as “Christless Christianity.” I can deal with people who hold false gospels, who believe false doctrines, and even those who straight out deny Christianity. But those “false converts,” those weeds among the wheat, they can destroy a church that fails to guard against false teachings or lets slip their grasp on sound doctrine. And here is where we should, IMHO, concentrate our efforts. Not in seeking who those false converts are, but in making disciples of people. I think our focus should be on discipleship (here I mean the worship of believers in a local assembly and building up the saints) within our local churches and sharing the gospel of Jesus outside the local church.

    Anyway, those are my two cents.....well, maybe two bucks but you can keep the change.
     
    #13 JonC, Feb 4, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
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  13. evangelist6589

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    First thank you for responding to this thread and not joining some others who have also posted in attacking me and not even addressing the topic. I appreciate this and it shows maturity on your part. These would be the false converts. The weeds that grow along the wheat as you explained well by the scripture reference that you have brought up. Definitely people who attend church but have no relationship with Jesus. They attend out of tradition (many in the south do this) and many Catholics do this. In fact there are many that do this in many different types of churches.

    We do not have the information to determine the true from the false converts. Instead, we are called to judge by the spiritual fruit produced and to act in accordance with the fruit that we see. We are fruit inspectors, not botanists. If a brother acts lost, then we treat him as lost. Perhaps he is saved and God is working in his life towards repentance and he’ll return (1 Cor. 5:5). If he appears to be a brother, then we welcome him as such. But we can’t say if he is truly saved. On the Day of Judgment many will say to Jesus, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?” But still comes those dreadful words “I never knew you.” I interpret that these people truly believe that they are saved. In truth, however, they lean on their own understanding, their own theology and their own works for salvation (see Matthew 7). They have a belief, but not a saving faith. This should strike a holy fear into the minds and consciences of every believer; for since we call on God as a Father who judges impartially according to our works, we should conduct ourselves with fear during our time here on this Earth (1 Peter 1:17-18). But this is not a works based salvation. We are called out by God (we are made holy) and therefore we are to be holy (1 Peter 1:14). Our works do not make us holy; they exist because God has made us holy. My conclusion is that we cannot truly discern the salvation of another person, but we can judge by the fruit one produces. [/QUOTE]

    I agree. That passage in Matt is a common one that I use when open air preaching. You see I do not only use the Law when I open air as there are plenty of other passages in scripture to be used. We do not know who is lost, but we can judge by the fruit that we see. I do not disagree with what you have said. It is obvious that you also read/listen to Paul Washer.

    Second, defining “false converts” as those who acknowledge the true gospel but appear to be false believers in that gospel, where do I believe most are located? This is a matter of speculation, brother, but I believe that most are located along side us. I think that perhaps there are fewer “false converts” in many Pentecostal churches than they are in evangelical Baptist churches. I've known several Pentecostals in whose presence I am humbled by their faith in Jesus Christ, although their doctrine is filled with error and inconsistency. I've also seen many theologically correct men who seek converts to their theology as a salesman or many other religions seek converts, but their lives do not exhibit faith. But this is speculation and opinion on my part. [/QUOTE]

    So you do agree that many false converts are in traditional Baptist churches? You may have a point as I used to live in the south and do lots of street evangelism. I lost count of all the people that told me they were christians because they attended church. In fact at a certain Baptist Church I used to preach in the nursing home ministry and the leaders of the ministry did not want me to preach salvation messages because they ASSUMED that the people in the nursing home were all saved. I did not make that assumption because as a street evangelist I had witnessed many traditional baptists.

    There is a difference between discerning between correct doctrine and error and between discerning a believer’s faith. There is also a difference between espousing correct theology/doctrine and being saved. It is interesting to me that God, having chosen what is foolish in the world (1 Cor. 1:27) has confounded the wise who view the gospel itself as foolishness (1 Cor. 1:18). Sometimes I find it worrisome that often we appear to be striving to make the gospel message conform to the wisdom of this world, and perhaps like the Greeks seeking wisdom we are sometimes confounded by the plain and simple word of the cross (1 Cor. 1:18-31). I do not mean this to be derogatory towards studying theology and standing on firm doctrine. But sometimes I think that we may emphasize our understandings as preeminent in the eyes of God as we seek to make converts to our own theological views rather than to Christ. But what I see much too often in evangelical Christian churches is what Michael Horton referred to as “Christless Christianity.” I can deal with people who hold false gospels, who believe false doctrines, and even those who straight out deny Christianity. But those “false converts,” those weeds among the wheat, they can destroy a church that fails to guard against false teachings or lets slip their grasp on sound doctrine.
    And here is where we should, IMHO, concentrate our efforts. Not in seeking who those false converts are, but in making disciples of people. I think our focus should be on discipleship (here I mean the worship of believers in a local assembly and building up the saints) within our local churches and sharing the gospel of Jesus outside the local church.

    Anyway, those are my two cents.....well, maybe two bucks but you can keep the change.[/QUOTE]

    I do not disagree with what you have said in this paragraph.
     
    #14 evangelist6589, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
  14. evangelist6589

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    You spread lies Greektim.
     
  15. Greektim

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    Very uplifting, Evan, thank you!
     
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  16. evangelist6589

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    Then stop lying about me
     
  17. Greektim

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    Instead of simply accusing me of lying, why don't you tell me what it is that I have lied about and then prove me wrong?

    As I said, you rarely engage in your own posts. This is yet another example. The only thing you did differently here was not say something about a rabbit. But this is similar to accusing me of lying. So I'm still shown to be correct. :D

    BTW... I was reading the thread that you and JoJ were going back and forth on w/ the 10 words and John 3. He even made the same observation that you rarely respond in your own posts. It is not just me.
     
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  18. evangelist6589

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    Not true I made a reply to Jon C this morning.
     
  19. Greektim

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    I'd say only 1 reply qualifies as rarely. But hey... to each his own.
     
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