The Fatal Flaw in Particular Election

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by KenH, Feb 8, 2003.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    If election and being foreordained applied only to the apostles and particular individuals as Brother Bill teaches, then I submit that Brother Bill is teaching that God is a respecter of persons. Paul is blessed with seeing the glorified Jesus so that he is saved. Thomas doubts and he is blessed with seeing the nail prints in Jesus's hands and the wound in His side so that he is saved. The other apostles are blessed with traveling with Jesus for several years and witnessing His miracles first-hand and they are saved.

    So, according to Brother Bill's "assumptions" as I understand them, election only applies to these particularly elected individuals so that their salvation is a sure thing. But the rest of us can only read about these things so our salvation is now in our own hands and is anything but a sure thing.

    Brother Bill has created in his flawed theology a sort of "elect of the elect", or a "particular election of election". With all due respect, I do not buy into his
    assumptions. [​IMG]

    Truly, the non-Calvinist schemes that they can come up with are a quite large plethora.
     
  2. Yelsew

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    No Ken,
    It is simply a different way of believing in and about Jesus, God the father and God the Holy Spirit. It is simply a different interpretation of scripture than what the Calvinists hold to.

    It is not any more flawed than your belief, because you cannot prove that what you believe is true either! There is a time coming for all of us that will reveal what is important to have believed.
     
  3. Frogman

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    The essence of faith is that which cannot be "proven" naturally man seeks 'scientific' proof to satisfy curiosity. Faith is not scientifically proven. If it must be then it is not faith.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. William C

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    Your right Dallas, Faith can't be proven, but the assumptions that we apply to the text can be supported. Which is what I've done in my post "START OVER". I would like to hear your opinion on my interpretation of Eph. 1, which provides solid backing for my assumption and shoots down your assumption. Thanks

    With Respect,
    Bro. Bill
     
  5. romanbear

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    Hi Ken;
    Actually if God chooses some and not all then, He is a respecter of persons.This is why I cannot accept Calvin's Idea of predestination.Some are chosen and some are rejected.In order to not be a respecter of persons then all must have the same opportunity.It's true that not all hear the gospel but all do have a knowledge of God inside of them and if they settle for a man made God instead of searching Him out.then it's there own fault.This knowledge of God is in man the same way that the knowledge of right or wrong is there.
    Romanbear
     
  6. Me2

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    Ken,

    the scripture imply that the "elder will serve the younger"..

    Doesnt there have to be an indication of who is the elder..and who is the younger.

    If some are chosen now..to be examples to others in the future..ie, the younger.

    your solution would be by Spreading Gods plan of salvation to include multiple ages..some saved now..and all saved later.

    solving all inconsistencies..whereas all are treated equally and God would not be disrespecting any man.

    Me2
     
  7. Yelsew

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    That which is proven requires no faith. The essence of faith is it is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hope: "I hope that God finds me acceptable" Evidence: "I know that at the Judgment I will not be cast into the Lake of fire"

    That is, I have the hope that what I believe is true, and that because I believe in even the Name of Jesus, God finds me Justified in His Son. And that God's final decision about me is life eternal with His Son and not the second death. I have Faith because I cannot at this moment in time prove any of that to you or anyone else.
     
  8. GH

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    Ah yes, the last shall be first and the first shall be last – God says so.

    "For God hath shut up all men unto disobedience, that He might have mercy upon all." Rom. 11:32

    "For all shall know Me from the least to the greatest..." Heb. 8:11

    As I’ve stated before on these boards - I believe that all are chosen - some vessels for noble use, some for ignoble use. Those vessels of wrath have a place in the plan. Chosen by God, I believe, to bring about the purpose of His will by His Spirit through those whom HE HAS PREPARED to receive it or those such as us who KNOW HIM. Scripture speaks of God creating good and evil. And this for the ecclesia (which was chosen before the foundations of the earth were laid, chosen before God created good, evil or the Adversary) - the church - to sanctify her. God has set her apart for His special work, but does this mean that the unchosen are unloved by God? If He commands us to love our enemies - how can it be that He would hate His, especially since He created them that way? Am I more loving than God? Ask yourself the same question.

    Rom 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob (the chosen?) I loved, but Esau (the unchosen?) I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy (the chosen?), and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion (the unchosen?)." Then it goes on to say that God will have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He HARDENS whom HE WANTS to harden.

    Romans which I had read a thousand times and never saw the fullness of those verses about all dead in Adam, all alive in Christ (more than four times Paul says it in chapter 5). Powerful, very powerful to me. Wait a minute here, I ask myself, I ask my Lord. ALL are made alive in Christ? Suddenly I knew that it meant all. The end of our faith, which in reality is the FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD expressed in our lives by His grace, is only part of the equation, for our Lord is the Savior of all men, "especially those", or in particular, those who place their faith in Him by HIS WILL.

    Salvation flows as far as the curse is found and is expressed as "all the more" in Romans chapter 5, among other scripture verses. John also declares that Christ has made a propitiation for our sins. And, in the same breath declares that the atoning sacrifice is "not for our sins only" BUT ALSO.... for the sins of the whole world." ("but for those of the rest of the world as well.")

    Rom. 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all. 33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser? 35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid him? 36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all,” - who is going to talk back to that verse? Not me.

    There is only one way to God; it flows to us by His grace. He is the Lord, that which is closed, He opens. "He will take of the things of mine and reveal them unto you," Jesus said. Paul speaks of being instructed by the Father by the giving of a "spirit of wisdom and insight into mysteries through a knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart being enlightened that you may know what is the hope His call to you inspires." Eph. 1.

    THAT WE MAY KNOW HIM.

    "...when it PLEASED God, who separated me from my mothers womb, and called me by His grace..." Like Paul, we've been chosen and called by His grace. The way is open for us, by His grace. But…… "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1Tim.2:4).

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. 19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

    "8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, 11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil.2:8-11).

    "But WHO may abide the day of His coming? and WHO shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire and like a fuller's soap.”

    WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

    Those of us who, by His grace for we can do nothing without Him, have tasted of His goodness and know His everlasting love spend so much time shooting each other in the foot – infighting about the minute details of the “Christian” laws that have evolved over the past two thousand years and basing their beliefs on the doctrines of men…….we’ve left the simplicity of the gospel behind.

    Oh well, this too must be in His plan for there is none like Him - for He will have all men to be saved.

    All Glory, Praise and Honor to YOU Almighty Father!! \o/

    Peace, GH
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    Romans nine was not entered into the Word of God in order to tell us that God is dividing His created beings into two groups, the elect and the majority-non-elect.

    With reference to Pharaoh He is telling us why he chose him for this Divine plan. Pharaoh was lost/damned all the time because he did not receive Christ. [John 1:12; John 3:18b] God did not need to 'harden' Pharaoh in order to send him to destruction; he was on his way their from birth because of the Adamic nature.

    God, only, used Pharaoh for these two reasons. 'Even for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and {secondly} that My Name might be declared throughout the earth.' There are no superlatives here to even hint that Almighty God was trying to damn him along with Esau, plus the billions of non-elect.

    Calvinists implicate God as being the one who 'hardened' Pharaoh. The balanced and wise view is that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and then God hardened Pharaoh's attitude toward God.

    Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Exodus 8:15, 19, 32. 9:7, 34, 35 and I Samuel 6:6.

    Then God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Exodus 7:13; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27 11:10 and 14:8.
     
  10. Yelsew

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    Me2,
    There is one prophesy concerning the younger ruling over the older, and that prophesy was fulfilled in Jacob and Esau. There is no other biblical application of, or for this prophesy!
     
  11. KenH

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    Looks like you got it backwards, Ray. Exodus 7:13 precedes Exodus 8:15.
     
  12. Me2

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    Yelsew,
    Thats not meant to be a prophecy.
    rather than a physical and spiritual application.

    spiritual:

    since the new covenant..Grace allows one to enter God spiritual tabernacle and take of the bread of life and feed those being subject under the law with spiritual food. also feeding the obedient children growing in the sanctification process.

    the fathers serve as a spiritual witness to young men.
    the young men serve as a spiritual witness to children.

    "The elder with experince and understanding serves the younger without".

    even in the physical world some of these truths eek out

    Respect your parents..sound familiar.
    or be subject unto authority..

    compared to the disobedient..

    rom 1:30..disobedient to parents 31: without natural affection..
    1 pet 2:10 despise government..speak evil of dignities.


    simply putting the concept..this is agape love.
    the character of God...the superior being reaching "down" to those who cannot help themselves..
    he calls us his "children". even easier to grasp..
    Jesus calls us his Brothers..he is our older brother..

    he is our blueprint...the older serving the younger.


    this might freak you..have you figured out just what the elect are for..seems they use their time learning about God rather than administering to their brothers and sisters. Truth is the elect are to serve as elders to Gods creation in The ages to come..they are to be the walking, talking literal bodies where jesus resides and lives through towards those who are understanding, who God is and who they are..only in a environment without Sin.

    that is what the inheritance of Christ is..
    to serve the creation of God by being a witness to it.by "giving yourself away". by just being "Christ in Yelsew". serving them with what you ask ?

    what do you think you are saved now for ?
    to create a testimony..a lifestyle..treasure..character..memories..experiences.

    you see, Not all of Gods creatures will remember or even be allowed to remember what they have done on this planet within the choice that we have made.

    What glorifies God in your Life ? Thats what you will be serving others with. since the Day that Jesus Became your Lord..You became a walking Talking sinless tape recorder. Your Life glorifies God..By what Jesus has done for you...and allowed whatever you have been able to create within your being to become God's Treasure. What will he do with you..Give you away.

    "the elder serving the younger".

    Its a bigger concept than first meets the eye..
     
  13. Yelsew

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    Me2, You are bunching a lot of similar but unrelated thoughts.

    The Prophesy relates to Jacob and Esau (Twins in the womb) and not to father and sons, elders roles with new proslytes, Experienced vs unexperienced, shepherd with sheep, etc.
     

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