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Featured The Final Authority of Scripture

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jul 11, 2016.

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  1. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    We agree do we not? I need your "HELP" concerning scripture.

    Because SOLA SCRIPTURA does not work.
     
    #41 utilyan, Jul 15, 2016
  2. The American Dream

    The American Dream Member
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    Totally agree with Biblicist. It pretty much puts all charismatic denominations into the cult or magic act category. The supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. The Bible is the complete and final revelation of God in Jesus Christ. I feel sorry for those who watch people like Bennie Hinn, Pat Robertson, Robert Tilton and the like. Not only are you being fed false doctrine you are helping build their mansions and airports, and they really appreciate it.
     
    #42 The American Dream, Jul 15, 2016
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  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So when you say, "I need your 'HELP' concerning scripture. Because SOLA SCRIPTURA does not work" you are defining "SOLA SCRIPTURA" in a broader sense than the Reformers or anyone else has. In other words you are perverting our position.

    Let's be clear. Scripture is final authority for faith and practice and NOTHING MORE, it is not God nor is it the Savior. God's Word teaches that it is through the preaching of the gospel that God is pleased to reveal Christ by His Spirit within man.

    Your problem is too big for me or any other human or institution composed of men. You need the right Spirit first in you (That is God's revelation within) and then guiding you (1 Tim. 4:1) according to its divine design as the final authority for faith and practice (2 Tim. 3:16-17) and then you'll be just fine.
     
    #43 The Biblicist, Jul 15, 2016
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  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    To the readers. Notice that our Catholic friends have not even attempted to demonstrate my exposition and application of Isaiah 8:16-20 is wrong. Ask yourself why? The answer is simple. They are not familiar enough with Scripture to be considered expositors and yet are they not in the very denomination that claims that proper Biblical teaching and insight is confined to their leadership and members? Don't they quote 1 Tim. 3:15 and claim proper understanding is restricted to their church?

    If this was actually true, they could easily demonstrate to our readers by proper exegetical principles and practices why my exposition is incorrect. So we wait and wait but I don't think any Biblical based response is forth coming.
     
    #44 The Biblicist, Jul 15, 2016
  5. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    We are completely familiar with the Scriptures and we also have the correct interpretation of them. Plus, we live them out in the way we worship - the Mass is the Scriptures in action.

    Now let's be clear though, the Scriptures are not the final authority - they go hand in hand with the Magisterium of the Church. Not just one man deciding things, but with the authority God gave His Holy Church.
     
    #45 Adonia, Jul 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well I think readers should notice that THE WORD is not confined to something that can only be read.

    You have not established INK and Stone as the supremacy of authority


    I can show scripture were FLAT OUT scripture is inferior to the Christian.
    You are trying to push your personal sense of reliability which cannot be applied to God.

    2 Corinthians 3
    2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
    4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Its not written with ink. The letter kills, the spirit gives life.


    Jesus Christ stated when a issue arises we take it to the scriptures? NO, we take it to the church.

    Matthew 18

    15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.


    Jesus could have simply said if there is a problem check the scriptures. He did not say this.

    Second problem with this passage is Jesus says whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.

    That's nonsense. He should have said whatever scripture binds on earth shall be bound in heaven.

    Jesus gave authority to his church, He did not give it to scripture.




    Matthew 22
    23On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24asking, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.’ 25“Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; 26so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27“Last of all, the woman died. 28“In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.”
    29But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31“But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

    Here comes the Sadducees with holy scripture (good luck finding it, its apocryphal) , And Jesus says THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

    Should the correct step be go back to scriptures? no. They need Jesus' authority.

    Apparently there is a RIGHT WAY and A WRONG WAY with scripture. The Sadducees had scripture it was not enough.


    Oh I got the holy spirit so I obviously translate scriptures perfectly and you don't have holy spirit, how convenient.


    Timothy 3:8

    8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

    Show me where in scripture it states the NAMES Jannes and Jambres opposing Moses in the old testament. Saying their names and who they are.



    Matthew 2
    23and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “He shall be called a Nazarene.”


    Find this "he shall be called Nazarene" in scripture.

    Hint: SPOKEN through the prophets.





    Jude 1

    8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

    Show me please the scripture where Michael disputes with the devil about the body of Moses.


    By the way , Guess who won that fight between Mike and Lucy? The Jews know.
     
    #46 utilyan, Jul 15, 2016
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So what did you use to establish this? Oh, yes, Scripture was your final authority. And I could repeat this for every point you made.

    However, the reader will notice this is another DIVERSION tactic and our Catholic friends still have no comment or church inspired commentary on my exposition of Isaiah 8:16-20? Still waiting as this text and exposition is the substance of this thread. He said that his church is the final authority for truth and so where is their insight to demonstrate my interpretation of Isaiah 8:16-20 is wrong?
     
    #47 The Biblicist, Jul 15, 2016
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  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Nice words, but no response to my exposition of Isaiah 8:16-20 and where it is wrong based upon contextual evidences! Still waiting! Where is Rome's insight on this scripture to show from the context where my exposition is wrong? Still waiting!
     
    #48 The Biblicist, Jul 15, 2016
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Jerked out of context. In context Paul is contrasting the superiority of the "new" covenant to the "old" covenant (as represented by the ten commandments written on stone), he is not contrasting the superiority of the Christian with Scripture. This is a fine example of how Roman Catholicism perverts scripture and lacks spiritual discernment in rightly dividing scripture.



    I have already exposed your false interpretation of this passage. Didn't you read it? I will repeat it for you. The very words you have placed in upper case lettering is a quotation from the Old Testament Scriptures. In other words Jesus is appealing directly to the authority of scriptures as the basis for the church to deal with problems that scriptures do not speak directly about. Notice that the specific problem in the context is not addressed except in general terms because these are circumstantial problems not doctrinal problems. However, the scriptures provide general principles such as Jesus is quoting from scripture to deal with such personal issues.

    Second, Jesus uses the future perfect tense, thus denying the church legislative authority, but only allowing administrative authority or authority to administer what heaven "shall have already" approved or disapproved. In other words the church has no authority to defy already inspired prophetic revelation - the scriptures.



    You are only demonstrating your ignorance of the Old Testament scriptures just as they were condemned by Christ as being ignorant of the scriptures. It is found in the scriptures in more than one place.

    De 25:5 ¶ If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.
    De 25:6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.
    De 25:7 And if the man like not to take his brother’s wife, then let his brother’s wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband’s brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband’s brother.

    It is also found illustrated in the book of Ruth as the "near kinsman."

    These Pharisees were not quoting the text verbatim but were paraphrasing and summarizing Deuteronomy 25:5-7.

    The rebuke of Jesus is just as applicable to your ignorance of the scriptures.




    You can't be serious? You just quoted it! Paul wrote by inspiration and was given divine revelation! Biblical writers were led to quote portions or make references to pagan and religious source materials without ascribing that either the pagan or religous source was inspired by God. Notice, Paul did not say "thus saith the Lord" or "it is written" both of which demand the source is inspired scripture.


     
    #49 The Biblicist, Jul 16, 2016
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  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Our Catholic friends are very good at diversion tactics, misinterpreting scriptures, jerking texts out of context, claiming special Biblical insight by their denomination, but as yet, they have not been able to point out where there is any misinterpretation of the primary scriptural basis presented in this thread - Isa. 8:16-20. They continue to make their wild claims but none have been able to deal with the primary text that this thread is based upon.
     
    #50 The Biblicist, Jul 16, 2016
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The error is it presumes the command given by God was scripture.


    11For thus the LORD spoke to me with mighty power and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,
    12“You are not to say, ‘It is a conspiracy!’
    In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
    And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.
    13“It is the LORD of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
    And He shall be your fear,
    And He shall be your dread.
    14“Then He shall become a sanctuary;
    But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,
    And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
    15“Many will stumble over them,
    Then they will fall and be broken;
    They will even be snared and caught.”

    Commanded to SAY. We don't see him walking around with a copy of Isaiah, he was authorized by God.

    This is common sense. You would have to argue that these people written about in Isaiah made the mistake of not reading Isaiah.


    There is points where God commands people to write this down and deliver it, this is not one of them.

    After God tells the prophet to say all those things, what if Mr. Bible says well SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE, Scripture is our final authority!

    Not happening.
     
    #51 utilyan, Jul 16, 2016
  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "You can't be serious? You just quoted it! Paul wrote by inspiration and was given divine revelation! Biblical writers were led to quote portions or make references to pagan and religious source materials without ascribing that either the pagan or religous source was inspired by God. Notice, Paul did not say "thus saith the Lord" or "it is written" both of which demand the source is inspired scripture."


    Paul given divine inspirtation? He'd have to be divinely stupid...... Every Jew KNEW who Jannes and Jambres was before PAUL was ever BORN.

    Your logic is laughable. Who is Jannes and Jambres!? derived from scripture alone YOU STILL DONT KNOW.

    Tell me who they are. Were Jannes and Jambres guys Paul just met after lunch? Maybe were they twin childhood friends of Moses.


    Timothy 3:8

    8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.


    From this verse alone the identity of who these men are is impossible to identify. YOU can't do it, You haven't done it, you never will.

    No sir, you are done, LOST. get your money back.


    When you answer who they are you are going to pull from a TRADITION, or maybe holy spirit is going to divinely inspire you.....lol.
     
    #52 utilyan, Jul 16, 2016
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are forgetting one important factor. Prophets generally delivered their prophecies to the CURRENT generation orally BEFORE they committed it to writing for future generations. The inferiority of oral tradition is obvious. Just get 20 people and write down verbatim a sentence and then have the first person whisper that sentence to the next person, and orally to next and so on and by the end you will not have the same sentence. Oral tradition is far more subject to error than the written word. Even the most liberal scholars admit that only around 1% of the Biblical text stands in question, and that 1% affects no Biblical doctrine and is primarily word order or missing articles.

    Above Isaiah is reporting what the Lord instructed him by direct revelation by inspiration of the Spirit. So your point is pointless.
     
    #53 The Biblicist, Jul 16, 2016
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I am very well aware of Jewish traditions here. But you are still missing my point. Paul does not say he is quoting anyone does he? Neither does Paul claim Jewish tradition is inspired or preserved by God here or anywhere else does he? Therefore, the only reason we can trust this aspect of tradition is true is because it is confirmed by Paul under inspiration. Even you must admit that much of Jewish tradition is false. If you don't admit that, then you are at odds with Jesus Christ who condemned and correct aspects of Jewish Tradition (Mt. 5; 15).

    So here is your problem. Which part of Jewish tradition is right or wrong? Here Paul by inspiration puts this to rest with regard to the names of Moses's antagonists. However, how can you know if any other aspect of tradition where God's written word does not confirm it, is actually true? You don't and you can't know it. Only by inspired scriptures is it possible to confirm truth from error just as John said (1 Jn. 4:6). Hence, your point is pointless.



    Again, your point is pointless. Divine inspiration has separated this tradition from others as validated by by God, but you cannot claim that for any Jewish tradition that is not validated by scripture. Why? Because the example of Christ (and Paul) condemning aspects of jewish tradition demonstrates it is not reliable.
     
    #54 The Biblicist, Jul 16, 2016
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  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Thank you thank you!

    This is what I want!.

    You are presenting the telephone game and our human sense of reliability. Which I already mentioned here and other threads.

    When God claims he will move your car, you look behind him and ask "where is the tow truck?"

    Your idea of God is so weak that only the most reliable method of communication by your standard works.

    If we have to fight a Giant, God chooses a child and you have chosen a battle tank.

    If we have a boat God has chosen a leaky boat with a mutinous crew and you have chosen a yacht.


    As a method of communication Jesus Christ established his OWN SCRIPTURE his ink was Bread, his pen was Wine, his paper was People, and his grammar was take this my body and this my blood.

    Jesus Christ wrote in a universal language that even blind people could read and deaf people could hear , more humble then any other method.

    It was too humble of a method of communication YOU STILL CAN'T SEE IT. You can't even acknowledge what Christ did as HOLY scripture.............THE HOLIEST.
    The concept of humility is alien.

    I can literally take sticks and shove them in mud to make "writing" and you would say my method of communication is greater then Christ.

    And you took THE WORD and threw it in the trash. Because your way of communication is superior to Christ. The idea that the word is SPOKEN, impossible.

    Maybe God was trying to teach you ACTUAL FAITH. It takes REAL faith to depend on God.

    Is it unthinkable to put your trust in humanity your brothers and sisters, impossible that the medium God chose was with other people.

    He became man and he is alive, you tell God he is dead and should be a book.


    I follow the on going living command of Jesus Christ he told us "DO THIS". I do it because the command itself. This is the scripture Jesus wrote himself in his own humble method.

    You would slap Jesus aside, wait I'm going to have to verify with the "REAL" holy scripture.


    You check the bible to make sure you have God right, instead You should check with GOD to make sure you have bible right.
     
    #55 utilyan, Jul 16, 2016
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Where have I ever denied prophets spoke orally before they were directed to put it into written scripture. I have said that from the outset. Don't you read what I say? If not, then what is the point to respond to you?



    God has chosen his word to reveal himself, that is His choice not mine. You are not making much sense, because in reality you are criticizing God for His own choices. He is the one that said that scripture is inspired and sufficient for faith and practice (2 Tim. 3:16-17).


    Sure, the Lord's Supper manifest Christ FIGURATIVELY but it does not convey Rome's paganistic ritual. However, your whole argument here is based on your interpretation of guess what? Scripture.


    No, first because you are not a prophet and if you claimed it you would fail the tests of the prophet. Second, the Biblical canon is completed as predicted by scripture (Isa. 8:16-20).

    Transubstantation is "trash and should be not only thrown in the garbage can but buried forever. The scripture is Christ's superior revelation to man for several Biblical and common sense reasons. It is "more sure" than apostolic oral tradition (2 Pet. 1:15-18).

    Faith is required to believe his Word and you mock it and that is an obvious proof that you are without faith.

    Don't you possess enough common sense to realize that uninspired persons don't always speak the truth but Jesus says, "Sanctify them by thy word, they word is truth."

    One minor correction, it is "his" book thus "his" word and if you despise it you are despising him. He said through the Spirit that it is sufficient for all doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16-17) and he said if anyone does not speak according to "this word" it is because there is no truth in them and it is obvious that fits you and your denomination.


    Now, I wonder where ou found such a command???????

    I got a news flash for you, your "Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible nor is your "god" the God of the Bible. That is a good reason to "slap" your Jesus aside.


    And how would I know that it is the God of the Bible that I am checking in with? So the command to "try the spirits" are to be ignored according to your suggesting and we are going to go by "feelings" or popular opinion or personal opinions all of which cannot go beyond self-authentication??

    So you are saying we should ignore God's inspired commands in 1 Jn. 4:1 and Isaiah 8:20 and just trust in ourselves or others that it is the Spirit of God we are checking in with? Your position is nonsense.
     
    #56 The Biblicist, Jul 16, 2016
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This attack on many of the believers of this board is unwarranted and against the rules. Be careful what you post.
     
    #57 DHK, Jul 16, 2016
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, more diversion tactics and no direct response to the main Biblical exposition that this whole thread is based on.

    It should be obvious by now, after challenging them several times to confront the Biblical expositon of Isaiah 8:16-20 that they are incapable of doing so and the proof is they continue with the only weapons they have diversion tactics and ridicule.
     
    #58 The Biblicist, Jul 16, 2016
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Tradition.
    2 timothy 3
    14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    2 timothy 2
    1You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

    1 Corinthians 11
    1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
    2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.


    2 Thessalonians 2
    15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

    Luke 10
    16“The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”


    Romans 10
    14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
    17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

    1 peter 1
    25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”
    And this is the word which was preached to you.


    John 14
    25“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.



    John 16

    12“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.



    Preaching , Saying, HEARING, word of mouth. I have shown you various verses of authority and you cannot produce ONE single verse that says WRITTEN WORD is superior nor final authority.
     
    #59 utilyan, Jul 16, 2016
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    That's my experience DHK,

    Your experience is Catholics worship marry and statues, practically devil worshippers. Are we going to get a double standard?
     
    #60 utilyan, Jul 16, 2016
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