The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

As a rule I try not to debate against Bro Bob - but at the risk of doing so....

in Rev 19-20 we have John looking into the future at the return of Christ and saying that in that future comes "the first resurrection". The natural context is that John sees the same singular event the Peter sees when HE looks in the future saying "Fix your hope completely" on that future event!

Your argument that many years in John's PAST there would also have been a resurrection is true but does not provide an argument for altering the natural reading - which would point to the fact that Rev 19 is FUTURE even by all accounts on all sides of the issue and that when looking in the future THE focus event appears to be the FIRST resurrection.

We see it in 1Thess 4.

Again in 1Cor 15

Again in 1Peter 1

Again in Rev 20

These are all post-cross accounts looking to the FUTURE resurrection where "The Dead in Christ rise FIRST".

in Christ,

Bob

 

GE Please respond factually to the post above. The facts are that you claim my view has a dilemma - but the only evidence you give is "you quoting you" saying that "you" believe that the wicked are also raised FIRST even though the text says this is only true of the righteous??

Why are you going down that road?

Why would you use a case of you quoting you to show my argument to be in some kind of dilemma??

in Christ,

Bob

 

Ok - I stand corrected. I did mean "debate Bro. Bob" I meant "debate a position that Bro Bob posts".

When speaking of a future event (like we see in Dan 8 and Dan 7) the description is given as one who "Saw it" and the prophet says "then I kept looking until a he goat CAME and trampled" past tense speaking of the FUTURE victory of Greece over Medo-Persia in Dan 8.

I don't see any way to take that "and I saw" language that puts future events in the "I saw it happen" kind of language to remove them from being truly "future" -- and entirely "future".

in Christ,

Bob

 

John is looking into the future. In John 14 we see Christ saying he is going away after his resurrection and will come again. So once again as John looks into that future he sees Christ coming in Rev 19 and the great resurrection of the righteous that happens at that time. "The First resurrection... over these the second death has no power".

Rev 19 shows exactly how Christ got there in Rev 20:1-4.

What is the question at that point about "how He got there"??

If we can believe Rev 19 that leads right into Rev 20 -- then "yes".

Well -- 1Thess 4 says that when He comes back -- He takes us all to heaven.

John 14:1-3 says that when He comes back He takes us all to heaven.

Rev 19-20 shows us that great focus event of when He comes back... and resurrects the saints.

Notice that it does not say "they reign no EARTH for 1000 years" yet everyone who BELIEVES that always says it that way. It is instructive that John does not.

Actually it does not say "only those beheaded" rather it lists a bunch of descriptive terms with "AND those who" "AND those who"..

In Dan 7 we see the same thing -- the saints all described as being persecuted in all ages right down to the end of time.

Now that is going to be a hard statement to defend. John tells us of the FIRST resurrection and then points to another one saying that "The REST do not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years"

It is impossible to spin the SECOND resurrection back into the FIRST in my opinion.

In fact I am not sure I have ever seen anyone even try to do that.

What are you suggesting?

in Christ,

Bob

 

True. When John looks into the future and sees the second coming as stated in Rev 19-20:5 he does not see Christ being resurrected at His second coming.

I think we can agree.

True in 1Cor 15 He is the firstfruits - raised to life on the feast of first fruits. But 1 Cor 15 does NOT say that in the future at the Rev 19 second coming event Christ is part of that FIRST resurrection that takes place 1000 years before the SECOND resurrection.



Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, [b] and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark[/b] on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the [b]second death[/b] has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Yes.

Vs 4 "they CAME to LIFE"
Vs 5 "THIS IS THE FIRST resurrection"

How can this be missed?

Where is the confusing part here?

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are stuck on vs 5 as if there is a difference between "the REST of the dead did not COME TO LIFE UNTIL..." and "REST of the dead LIVED NOT again UNTIL"... what is up with that? (NASB vs whatever-you-are-using)

Also you are ignoring vs 4 "AND they came to LIFE" (NASB)


5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.



Vs 1-5 take care of the first resurrection - those that "Came to life" in what is called "the first resurrection" and the "REST of the dead" those that did NOT come to life in the first resurrection - come to life AFTER the thousand years are completed.

True - as already noted that is because Christ is not going to be resurrected at His coming described in Rev 19-20. He already was resurrected at the time John was writng.

That already happened when He was raised ON the feast of first fruits. For Christ died ON Passover and was raised ON the feast of first fruits just as his predictive ceremonial system specified.

Good news - Christ has been risen!

So then looking into the FUTURE John sees Christ's second coming (chapter 19) AND He sees the resurrection of the "blessed an holy ones" over whom the second death has no power - that happens AT the 2nd coming. It is called "The first resurrection".

Paul describes it in 1Thess 4 "The dead in CHRIST rise FIRST' and in 1Cor 15.

No text in all of scripture states that Christ has "yet" to "Become" the firstfruits of those that are asleep OR that this event would happen during the 1000 years following the 2nd coming.

Rather He was ALREADY raised from the dead ON the feast of first fruits just as predicted.

And took with him to heaven those who were raised from the dead in Matt 27.

See? It all just works perfectly.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Somehow I am not getting my view across.

I believe in the Matt 24 sequence.

Tribulation
2nd coming - and gathering of the saints to Christ.

Both the living and the dead are "taken up" to be with Christ at that time just as 1Thess 4 states. Raptured up to be with Christ.

They are with Christ "Where I am there you may be also" in heaven - raptured to heaven Just as Christ promised in John 14.

When the 1000 years are completed the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and the "REST" of the dead are raised. The wicked. The SECOND resurrection described by Christ in John 5 and also mentioned in Rev 20 as those "over whom the second death" DOES has power.

So -- no resurrecting is going on during the 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

 

More fun with Rev 20




Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, [b] and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark[/b] on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the [b]second death[/b] has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Key Points:

• Rev 19 and 20 are one story – about the return of Christ “I will come again and receive you unto Myself”.

This is all future to John’s day. “They will be priests”, “They will reign”, “And then I saw – they came to life”

Question – WHO are the saints of Rev 20:1-5 who participate in the general resurrection of the saints?

1Thess 4: - the Dead in Christ rise FIRST
Rev 20:4-5 The “Holy And Blessed” raised in the “FIRST resurrection” over these 2nd death has NO p;ower.
1Peter 1:6-13 – this resurrection is THE focus of the entire NT church

#1. The souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony.
#2. those who of those who died for Word of God
#3. AND Those who had not worship the beast or his image
#4. AND Those who had not received the mark of the beast

This “persecuted saints” image the view of ALL saints since the fall of Adam?

Gen 3 – “I will put war and hatred between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake”
Heb 11:4-40 – All the saints in all ages – persecuted and died without receiving the promise
Rev 6:9-11 Souls under the altar and their persecuted brethren on earth – dying
1 Peter 4; 12-14 – After you have endured persecution – then heaven.
Matt 24 – you will be persecuted – he who endures to the end – saved.
Dan 7:17-27 Saints persecuted in all ages until second coming ends it. No coasting



Accumulated Guilt; God views the end time persecuting power as doing this work for persecution for all of time.

Matt 23:35 ALL the blood of all saints from Abel to Zechariah charged to those who follow that example
Rev 18 – In her was found the blood of all saints – all that had been slain on earth from the days of Adam
2 Thess 2 – God will come and rescue you – dealing out vengeance to those who persecute you.


Rev 6 -- “Saints under the altar persecuted martyred – “Lord how Long will you wait”
Dan 7:17-27 – Single beast power wages war and overcomes saints until the end of time.
Dan 8:11-12 – Trample down the host
Rev 13:1-6 – Blaspheme – prevail against the saints.
.

 

Question: Does Rev 20:1-5 refer to the general resurrection of all saints – or just a select group persecuted at the end of time?

Ans: This is God’s view: The saints are the “Persecuted in ALL of time”


Gen 3

15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.''

Heb 11
4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
…
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
…
35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.


Rev 6

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God, and because of the testimony[/b] which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "" How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?''
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.


1 Pet 4

12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;
13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.


Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.[/b]
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.



Question:: Is the beast power at the end of time one that has persecuted for all of time?
Ans: Accumulated guilt principle applies since Satan is the master of all who persecute for Him

Matt 23:35
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah[/b], the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Matthew 5:12

"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

#1. There is nothing in Rev 20:4 saying :"only those beheaded were raised".

#2. The texts given were to show that ALL saints in ALL time are identified by God in prophecy as those who were persecuted by Satan and his agencies of evil on earth. So that simply saying "these are saints who were persecuted and overcame persecution" in no way excludes the persecuted saints of any age - from Abel to the end of time.

If Rev 20:4 can be rewritten to say "I saw that it was ONLY those who had been beheaded who were raised" then please show it. But if instead it remains in the form "those beheaded AND THOSE who did not worship the beast" then I think you have a problem because the beast power of Rev 13 is a "composite" of all the beasts of Dan 7 -- all major word empires persecuting the saints. And we see the SAME "persecuted saints AND then the kingdom given to Christ and the saints" scenario in Dan7 as we see in Rev 19 and 20. Surely we can agree on this.

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, [b] and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark[/b] on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


in Christ,

Bob

 

When the text says "AND they CAME to LIFE" it deals with the DEAD coming to LIFE (resurrection as we are told in 1Cor 15).

When after dealing with THIS group of the DEAD "that came to LIFE" -- the text goes on to deal with "THE REST of the DEAD" -- then all doubt is removed - it is clearly showing us that the first group of the dead - those that did not worship the beast of Rev 13 (a composit of ALL the beasts in Dan 7) -- CAME to life and "The REST of the dead" did NOT come to life UNTIL after the 1000 years were completed.

Now I realize that this kind of presentation of the details in the text that don't fit your view may not be accepted by you as "convincing evidence" to change your mind on this point sir. I am happy to accept that.

I am happy to leave this fact as a clear differentiator in our views.

I am happy to let the objective reader decide IF this "Coming to life" of the first group of the dead (those that did NOT worship the composit beast of Rev 13 comprised of all wordly false doctrines and systems listed in Dan 7 ) over whom "the second death had no power" is actually being contrasted with "the REST of the dead" who DID NOT come to life until AFTER the 1000 years were completed. The REST of the dead over whom the second death DOES have power.

As always I could be wrong in my views and I am sure that very often - the reader will be able to tell if that is the case or not.

But consider the advantage of accepting this truth for a minute sir.

It means that THE focus of the ENTIRE Christian church (1Peter 1, 1Cor 15, Matt 24, John 5, 1Thess 4, John 14:1-4) is THE focus of John in Rev 19-20!!

It means that this is included as one of THE LARGEST sections in the NT dealing with that central hope and focus "FIX your hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to YOU at the revelation of Jesus Christ". It means that the "Comfort one another with these words" message of Paul is THE SAME focus and message of John not only in John 14:1-3 BUT ALSO in Rev 19-20:5

One single harmoneous text!

In Christ,

Bob