The Fourth Commandment

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, May 31, 2010.

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  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    Why the term “week” is missing
    from the Creation and fourth Commandment accounts​

    I realize the various views concerning the fourth commandment. There are some who believe it applies to Christians and some who believe it does not. There are those who believe the moral law is entirely abolished. There are some who believe it refers to Saturday and others who believe it now applies to Sunday. There are those who believe it begins 6 pm. Friday and ends 6 pm. Saturday. There are those who believe it begins 6 p.m. Saturday and ends 6 p.m. Sunday. There are some who believe every day is alike and Saturday and Sunday are pagan days and mere tradition rather than Biblical command.

    However, what I am trying to zero in on is the actual wording and meaning of the command as given by God to Moses in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5.

    My Hebrew is rusty but using a concordance and the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament edited by R. laird Harris, Gleason Archer and Bruce K. Waitke, it appears to me that the term "seventh" (Heb. Sheb-ee-ee or Sheb-ee -et)and the term "Sabbath" (Heb. Shabbath) do not represent the same Hebrew term or same root (“sheba” versus “Shabath”). The terms for “week” and “seventh” come from a root that means “to swear” or “oath” while the term for “Sabbath” comes from a root that means “rest” or “cessation.” Even if you don’t accept the different root meanings, the Hebrew words “sheba” and “shabbath” have different meanings by established usage.

    Second, the Hebrew term translated "week" is missing from the fourth commandment terminology in Exodus and Deuteronomy, as well as, from the creation account terminology in Genesis.

    My position is that Moses intentionally avoided using the term "week" in the fourth command, as well as, from the creation account. The fourth command specifies nothing more than six periods of "yom" (day) followed by, and thus also, preceded by a seventh period of "yom" (day) sabbath without any specific application to any particular "yom" in the Jewish calander week, month or year nor limited to a 24 hour “yom.”

    Now the Saturday Sabbatarian response to my conclusion ultimately depends upon a mixture of logic with scripture rather than upon explicit scripture. They admit that the fourth commandment does not contain the words “of the week” but then demand that since it is explicitly designed by God to remember the creation which was concluded by God in seven literal 24 hour days then by necessary inference it must apply to the seventh day “of the week” even if those words are not found in Genesis or Exodus and Deuteronomy. Secondly, they would argue that the creation period of seven days forms the basis of the “week” that has been recognized from time immemorial. Thirdly, they respond that it must have a practical application to those receiving this command and the only logical and practical application is the seventh day "of the week" since it is the creation period of seven days that the Sabbath command is instituted to memorialize.

    However, here is the problem with this interwoven conclusion by logic with Scripture. The word “week” was available to Moses and yet He chose not to use it in any account of the Sabbath command. Why? I believe there is good reason. The inclusion of the prepositional phrase “of the week” would have firmly restricted its application to the seventh day of the current week used by the Jews. However, by omitting this phrase, the very logical application of the Sabbath rest to the seventh day of their week would be allowed without prohibiting a wider and different application to any 24 hour period that precedes and follows six 24 hour periods OR to any longer period than 24 hours that precedes and follows six equal periods. To test this hypothesis it is only needful to ask if the Sabbath law was restricted by Jews and God to the seventh day “of the week” and/or to only 24 hour periods?

    It cannot be successfully denied that God’s ultimate design for the Sabbath command is seen by his OWN APPLICATION of it. It can be easily shown that His OWN APPLICATION exceeds the Seventh Day Sabbatarian restriction to the seventh day “of the week.” Therefore, my hypothesis has some validity. God applies the Sabbath law not only to other 24 hour periods “of the week” than the seventh day “of the week” (1st, 8th, 10th, 15th, 22nd, 50th) in Leviticus 23, but he applies it to greater periods of 24 hours (month, year) in both Leviticus 23 and 25. The exclusion “of the week” was necessary to provide God’s wider application of the Sabbath law to other days in the week and other periods greater than 24 hours.

    Indeed, woven into the very context of the first mention of the Sabbath law in direct relationship to creation God is the double use the Hebrew term “yom” for both a literal 24 hour day and for a longer period;

    And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
    4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens


    Therefore Moses intentionally omitted the words "of the week" from both the creation account and from the fourth commandment with good reason. First, omitting the prepositional phrase “of the week” allowed the scriptural connection with the seventh day creation and Sabbath and the logical application to their current seventh day “of the week” observance without restricting it to such. Second, the omission “of the week” was necessary to prohibit the exclusive application and understanding of the Sabbath law to the seventh day of their current week when by design God would apply it to other 24 hour period days that followed and preceded six days, as well as, to periods exceeding 24 hours that were followed and preceded by six equal periods of time. Third, God’s ultimate prophetic design for Sabbath application is to “another day” that commemorates another and greater work of God and greater creation by God. God’s prophetic design is found in the emphasis in Leviticus 23 and 25 upon applying this law to days identified as the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd and 50th days in regard to the work of redemption by Jesus Christ under the New Covenant. Moreover, the ultimate achievement of the New Covenant work of Christ is seen in the application of the Sabbath rest to periods of years consummated by the 50th year of Jubilee in regard to the New Covenant and Christ. The new Sabbath 24 hour day was the day that commemorates the resurrection of Christ – the first day of the week and the new Sabbath period greater than the 24 hour period is the EIGHTH thousand year or the “eternal day” of the new creation that follows the seventh thousand year millennium.

    There are other substantial evidence found in both the Old and New Testaments to confirm this transition from the seventh to the first. Creation’s seventh day Sabbath was Adam’s first full day of his week. The seventh Jewish month was also the first month of their religious calendar. The beginning of the first day of the week in Jewish times occurs on Saturday in our calendar as it begins 6 p.m. our Saturday evening. From the New Testament it can be easily proven that Christ arose from the grave before sunrise on the first day of the Jewish week no earlier than 3 a.m before sunrise. This is the new Sabbath of Psalm 118 and Mark 16:9 and the better Sabbath observance in Hebrews 4:9-11.
     
  2. HankD

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    Hebrews 4
    9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
    10 For he that is entered into his rest (Grk. sabbatismos), he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.​

    Jesus Christ is the Sabbath rest of God.

    Matthew 11
    27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
    28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

    Right after this statement Jesus has a confrontation with the pharisees for allowing His disciples to violate the sabbath and ends the dispute with:​

    Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.​

    He is the new Sabbatismos.


    HankD​
     
  3. kyredneck

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    :thumbsup: Excellent.
     
  4. Dr. Walter

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    Neither of you gentleman were able to deal with my thesis or respond to it. So you play the diversion game or what I call the Jehovah's Witnesses tactic - "jumping Joes." You simply ignore the evidence placed in front of you and jump to another text. What you call "excellent" is indeed an excellent example of eisgesis not exegesis.

    His intepretation of Hebrews 4 is easy to prove erroneous and jerked out of context. In the context, the very ones in the wildness when Moses gave the fourth commandment (Heb. 3) also had the SAME gospel preached to them that the writer says was preached then and they could have entered the same spiritual "rest" by believing in the gospel that we do by believing in the gospel (Heb. 4:1-3). So the gospel "rest" found in Christ was entered then by faith as it is now by faith and yet IN ADDITION TO THIS GOSPEL REST they observed the Sabbath or fourth commandment. Why? Because the gospel rest did not fuflill it THEN or NOW and until it is fulfilled there will remain a Sabbath day observance THEN as well as NOW. Joshua bringing them into the promised land did not fulfil it. It was not fulfilled under the greatest King (David). Christ did not fulfil it but its fulfillment is still future from the time of the writer (v. 11 "us"). Only the New Heaven and earth fulfill it (vv. 11,14). However, the finished work of Christ established another Sabbath day observance. I cut and pasted Hank's erroneous quotation with his insertion in verse 10 below. The Greek term "sabbatismos" is not found in verse 10 where he places it below but is found in verse 9. The term "rest" in verse 10 represents the Greek term "pauo" not "sabbatismos."

    9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
    10 For he that is entered into his rest (Grk. sabbatismos), he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


    The argument is that we have a better sabbath day observance than those to whom the fourth commandment was given. "HE" that entered into his rest is Jesus Christ as no one else and their work can be compared to the work of God in creation and the sabbath day to commemorate it. Furthermore, "he" is contextually defined in verse 14. We continue to have a sabbath day observance because Christ memorialized the completion of His finished work of redemption just as God did. He set apart the first day of the week as "the Lord's day."

    Matthew 11 certain teaches the same truth as was taught to those who originally received the fourth commandment, that He is the "rest" we enter into when we beleive the gospel (Heb. 4:1-3) but it did not fulfill the Sabbath day observance THEN and neither does it NOW and never will until we enter into the eternal state (vv. 11,14).

    The statement by Christ that He is "Lord" of the Sabbath is simply the declaration that He is THE CREATOR who established the Sabbath day not that he was repealing the Sabbath as he went on to observe the Sabbath in its Biblical sense.
     
    #4 Dr. Walter, Jun 1, 2010
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  5. Dr. Walter

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    Mark 16:1-2,9 are very interesting from the Greek text in regard to the Sabbath. In verse 1 the Jewish Sabbath day is past and the normal terms used to express the first day of the week are used "mia sabbbatwn" or "first of sabbaths." However, in verse 9 Mark describes the first day of the week again but in completely different language. Instead of "mia" he uses "protos" and instead of the plural "sabbatwn" he uses the singular "sabbatou" which is only used elsewhere in the Scripture for the fourth commandment sabbath.

    The term "protos" is where we get our word "proto" in the word "proto-type" and it does mean the first in a series of things. I believe Mark is first defining the resurrection day in the normal language for the first day of the week in verse 2 but in verse 9 intentionally changes the language in describing the resurrection day to clearly indicate that Sunday is "the first in a new series of Sabbath" keeping.

    Oh, I realize you won't like this and won't agree with it but there is much more to come to demonstrate my original thesis that no one has yet to touch.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Walter - welcome to this discussion area of the BB.

    Your first problem is that the Jewish Calendar week at the time of Moses simply numbered the days (as we see also in the NT) instead of naming them.

    Your second problem is that the "evening morning were day X" formula limits the event to 7 contiguous actual-literal days.

    Your third problem is that Creation week is not "6 days" it is 7 - thus the Seventh-day purpose was set aside "sanctified" in Eden before sin. Even Christ affirms this in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" which speaks to the "making" of BOTH -- and that is what we see in the Genesis account.

    A distinction without a difference.

    Applying terms for time aggregation such as week, month, year, century - have no significance other than shorthand.

    7 days is a week like 24 hours is a day. A doctor may say "I want you to remain in bed for 24 hours" or "Don't eat for 24 hours" and everyone knows that that is still a day.

    But in this case God not only specifies the day "yom" in both Genesis 1 and Ex 20 -- He also specifies the time line "evening and morning".

    The key problem your argument has is that in Ex 20:8-11 God says "Six days YOU shall labor...but the 7th day is" and then goes directly to "for in SIX days the LORD made... and rested on the 7th day ... blessed it, made it holy" - thus the work week followed by the rest day of Sinai is hardwired directly to Eden by God Himself in the 4th commandment.

    Impossible to ignore.

    And as we see in Ex 16:23 "tomorrow is the Sabbath" (KJV) - thus the very day was known prior to the Ex 20 formal statement of legal code. It is not merely "keep any Seven day cycle you wish" -- rather it is "THIS IS" the seven day cycle I dictate. And the language of the Ex 20 statement in legal code claims that it began in Eden.

    You propose that the Bible says the Lord's Day is "week day one" -- it does not. In fact the only day assigned as the Day of Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Sabbath "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28 and it is "The day of the LORD Thy God" in Isaiah 58. Nothing like this is found in scripture for "the first day of the week".

    And as for the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship" Isaiah 66.

    The 7 day cycle of Sabbath observance continues in the New Earth - andit is not a "sign" that something is yet missing.

    In fact in Genesis 2 it is specifically "a sign" that work is fully completed.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Jun 1, 2010
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  7. kyredneck

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    Doc, could you in ten thousand words or less (actually maybe in one or two sentences), excluding all your proof texts, simply make your point for slow folks like me?

    [edit] I'm taking this:

    "......the resurrection day to clearly indicate that Sunday is "the first in a new series of Sabbath" keeping..."

    ...to mean you're saying that Sunday is the official day of worship now, or something like that.
     
    #7 kyredneck, Jun 1, 2010
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  8. HankD

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    Oops, you are correct I put the word sabbatismos (sabbath keeping) in the wrong verse.

    It is in verse 9 but my statement still stands (at least for me), Jesus Christ is my Sabbath rest.
    I came to Him as a Roman Catholic, He gave me rest from my works as He promised.
    I am resting in Him (24/7) and His finished works.

    HankD
     
    #8 HankD, Jun 1, 2010
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  9. kyredneck

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    Doc, never mind, disregard my question(s).

    Although I agree totally with Hank I also totally believe it's a gift from the Lord to His Church to have a day that's universally recognized as the Christian day of worship. Thank you Lord.

    On another note, I was blessed to hear a sermon which delved somewhat into numerology and one of the points made that stuck with me concerning the number eight, as the number symbolic of 'new beginnings', was how it included Sunday, the eighth day, the day those of the new covenant chose to meet. I don't believe that happened by chance. :)
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    Thank you Bob for your kind welcome.

    However, your responses are not valid to the points I made. The design of the fourth commandment cannot be resticted to something less than God's own application of it. God's own application applies it to other days than the seventh day "of the week". God's own application applies to greater periods of time than 24 hour periods (years). God's own application demonstrates the validity of my interpretation and explanation and your over restrictive interpretation and explanation do not harmonize with God's own applications of that command.

    Second, even in the New Testament perod the Jews identified the days by number rather than by name but in both testaments and in the writings of Moses the designation "week" was used and thus known.

    Third, I never denied that the days in Genesis 1 were seven days. I only pointed out that only six were dedicated to the work of creation.

    Fourth, I never denied the Sabbath was made for mankind but simply demonstrated that the applied day of the Sabbath was to another day, just as it had been applied to OTHER DAYS in Leviticus 23 which anticipated the change under the New Covenant to a greater Sabbath rest that commorated a greater work of God looking forward to a greater creation than the former.

    Finally, I acknowledged the Seventh Day Adventist/Jewish understanding and application as legitimate but I also pointed out the omission plus the wording did not restrict it to that application alone and Levticus 23 is ABSOLUTE PROOF it was not designed to be restricted to that application alone. Your argument is with God's own application of it not with me.

    However, this is but the tip of the iceberg in demonstrating Sunday is the Lord's Day rather than the day of Saturn.


     
    #10 Dr. Walter, Jun 1, 2010
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  11. BobRyan

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    It is possible I am in error on some point - it has happened before.

    ;)

    Not according to the language of the 4th commandment - because taking that language - the Israelites had the weekly Sabbath.

    And - exegetically the context does not allow for us to imagine that the Israelites were thinking of "multiple creation events" where God created "the heavens the earth the seas and all that is in them" inside a seven day period of time.

    Not in the language of the 4th commandment.

    As it still is today. However we still have no confusion in saying "six days you shall labor but the seventh day is the Sabbath" - and knowing that every Saturday - the Sabbath.

    And so the 4th commandment also makes that point - thus the reason for the 7th day memorializing that fact - and thus our weekly day of rest.

    the fact that this translated so explicitly - is seen in the fact that Israel was told to observe the 7 day cycle even down to the level of "tomorrow is the Sabbath" in Ex 16:23.

    Well I agree that the term Sabbath was applied to annual Holy days not just the weekly Sabbath memorial of creation.

    But the annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 are not "in scope" in the actual 4th commandment language - because it specifically points back to creation as its reason for existence - and yet we do not think that creation is when they started celebrating Passover. NOR do we think that Passover has anything at all to do with creation week. (Just taking one example of the annual Sabbaths in this case).

    1. In Isaiah 66 we see that the same 7th say Sabbath continues even in the New Earth. Context does not allow us to redefine the term in Is 66.

    2. There is no language in OT or NT that says that the Sabbath was to "Change under the New Covenant".

    3. The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 is the "ONE Gospel" (Gal 1:6-11) by which saints in both OT and NT ages were saved.

    I agree that there is a context for the term Sabbath that is not the 4th commandment context.

    As mentioned in my prior response - you cannot get "week day one" to be the "Lord's Day" by using a sola scriptura method.

    :godisgood:

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Dr. Walter

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    There is no other source in God's word for sabbath precept, principle or application to originate from other than from the language of the fourth commandment. The language of the fourth commandment permits the SDA/Jewish application but does not restrict it to that particular application but is worded to permit another application to other days (majority of which are the first day of the week - 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th). The absolute proof is that God applies it FURTHER than either the SDA or Jew both of whom are steeped in legalism and a false gospel.





     
  13. BobRyan

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    In Lev 23 God Word defines other days of "Holyl Convocation" calling them "Sabbaths" (annual feast days). God's Word is "the source". In that same Chapter God also repeats the fact that the 7th day Sabbath is in fact a day of "Holy Convocation".

    At no point in the chapter does God claim that the annual feast days are in any way a reference to the Creation week or that the 7th day Sabbath is extended to include Passover or any other annual feast day.

    Rather each of them are given their own place by the same Word of God that affirms the Ten Commandments. This is not a case of "deriving Passover" from Creation week.

    Rather as Paul points out in 1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover is slain" - the annual feasts pointed forward to the coming of the Messiah and their sacrifices pointed forward to the Heb 10 "Once for all sacrifice" of the Messiah.

    There is no animal sacrifice in Genesis 2:1-3 for observing the 7th day memorial of creation.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Dr. Walter

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    Your creating straw man arguments. No one is denying the seventh day Sabbath in Genesis 2 or in the laws and life of the Jews in Leviticus 23. What I am denying is that the wording of the Sabbath law solely restricts it to the seventh day sabbath as Leviticus 23 clearly demonstrates.

    The repeated application of the Fourth Command Sabbath to the day after the seventh day Sabbath in Leviticus 23 (1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th days) in a context of feasts that are prophetic of the NEW COVENANT work of Christ that commemorates the GREATER work by Christ than the creation in Genesis, and that will usher in a GREATER new creation to come demonstrates the OLD COVENANT with its Seventh day Sabbath sign will be replaced by the NEW COVENANT with its First day Sabbath sign.

     
  15. BobRyan

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    I am not accusing your argument of denying the existence of the 4th commandment. But your argument that the creation-memorial Sabbath of the 4th commandment is in anyway speaking to - the yearly feast-days is difficult to follow from scripture - since we have no such connection in scripture itself.

    Except there is no reference at all to creation or the creation Sabbath being the reason or basis for annual feast days in Lev 23.

    And there is no hint from Ex 20:8-11 and Gen 2:1-3 that the annual feasts were in anyway "in scope" in the creation-Sabbath command or observance.

    There is no indication that the New Covenant was not in full effect in the O.T.

    There is no indication that the "One Gospel" of Gal 1:6-11 that has been in effect since Adam - is not the "New Covenant" listed in Heb 8:6-11 -- which is simply a quote of the OT.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    May I remind you that Deuteronomy gives another reason for the Sabbath and it is not creation but redemption and the levitical feast-days and the feasts typify the redemption provision by Christ. Hence, this is a direct connection. So again, your total restriction to creation is unwarranted by your interpretation of the wording of the fourth commandment.

    I certainly believe that the gospel has always been a declaration of the "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20) from Genesis to Revelation with the primary focus on the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ (Acts 10:43) or the provision by the Second Person of the Godhead in this covenant between the Eternal Triune God.

    Justification by faith is "in" that promised provision by Christ that fulfills the law's demands fully and forever based solely upon Christ's own personal obedience "for us" and obtained by imputation not impartation and which is totally exclusive of any personal faithfulness or obedience by the believer to the law of God. Hence, we are justified by faith "IN" Christ not by faithfulness "TO" Christ. Now sanctification is another matter altogether for another purpose altogether.

     
    #16 Dr. Walter, Jun 1, 2010
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  17. BobRyan

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    Agreed - Moses argues 40 years after the fact that Israel as a nation is more obligated than other nations to keep the Creator's memorial of Creation - since God supernaturally rescued them - unlike anything He had done for any other nation.

    But what Moses does not do - is claim that God rescued them "in seven days" or that the 4th commandment written on stone was about to be edited because in Deut 5 Moses said - "Observe the Sabbath day as the LORD commandED you" 5:12. Moses goes back to the Sabbath's original form stating that they are to do what God told them to do - but then Moses adds the fact that because God rescued them - they should be diligent to do what God commanded them at Sinai regarding His Holy day.

    In Deut 5 Moses said this of God's commands --

    Deut 5
    22 ""These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

    Moses was adamant that this was unique and still unchanged in form - on tablets of stone - since Sinai.


    AGreed - they point forward and are predictive - the 4th Commandment points backward - and is prescriptive.


    Agreed - and we find the Gospel provisions listed in the New Covenant - as summarized in Heb 8:6-11 for in Hebrews Paul shows the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components
    • Forgiveness of sin “I will remember their sins no more
    • Adoption by God – “I will be their God – they will be My people
    • The New Birth – the New Creation – with the Law of God written on the heart AND mind
    That is true of every lost person from Adam to this very day - who accepted salvation and was born-again.

    Thus in Heb 11:1-6 the OT saints are described as men of faith - and as Romans 4 points out - even Abraham is described as operating under the one Gospel "by faith" through grace - salvation as a gift of God.

    No change - OT to NT - it is just "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-11.

    The lost person does not come to God "through faithfulness".

    Your perspective on the lost person is good.

    But the saved person "perseveres" - Rom 2:4-10
    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
    6 who
    WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]
    7 to those who by
    perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness
    , wrath and indignation
    .
    9 There will be [b
    ]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

    10 but
    glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek
    .


    And if they do not - they will fall from grace and be severed from Christ (Gal 5:4).

    For this reason Paul says "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them - neither will He spare you" Rom 11:20-21

    And even in his own case Paul says "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    Israel is the object of these commandments because they are a type of the elect of God in all ages. The fourth commandment is to remind them of a sinless creation before the fall and then to remind them of redemption after the fall. The redemption from Egypt is a type of redemption by the cross. Hence, the fourth commandment had a backward glance to a sinless creation and a forward glance to redemption through the blood with the fall in between with the type of heaven or the promised land ahead. The Levitical feasts and Sabbatical days in Leviitucs 23-25 teach the same thing by beginning with the seventh day sabbath which would give this backward perspective to a sinless creation and then a forward perspective to redemption as characterized in the feasts that immediately follow beginning with the Passover climaxed by the Jubilee after a Seventh year sabbath making the Jubilee typical of an eternal EIGHTH Day Sabbath.

    However, the shift from the seventh day sabbath to the first day of the week sabbath that dominates and characterizes all of these feasts point to a BETTER redemptive work than what the old Sabbath remembered in Egypt and points to a BETTER creation to come in Revelation than what the old Sabbath remembered in Genesis as well as a better promised land than Palestine. The seventh day Sabbath is the sign and seal of the OLD covenant whereas the resurrection day of Christ is the sign and seal of a BETTER covenant.

    Hebrews 9 demonstrates this transition between the old and the new covenants and even though the salvation application of the new covenant was present from Genesis to the cross (Rom. 3:25) its application was based strictly upon promise as it had not yet been ratified by blood. When Christ came and ratified it by His own blood He also ushered in a new administration with a new house of God, new ordinances, new commission toward discipling a new people (Gentiles) with a new Sabbath day. The Old Covenant was done away with, its administration, its ordinances, its Jewishnesss with its sign and seal - sabbath.

    Your quotation of Galatians 5:4, Romans 11 are all based on eisegesis not exegesis in regard to your application to salvation. Gal 5:4 deals with falling away from the DOCTRINE of grace in their minds (Gal. 3:1) not from their SALVATION by grace of their person. Romans 11 and the cutting of and adding back the SAME Jewish brances does not refer to individual loss and regaining of personal salvation as that is impossible according to Hebrew 4;6. Rather branches refer to the selective ETHNIC people God has chosen to apply the Abraham blessings of salvation to in order to call out a people from that ethnic group. Even though Israel is presently "cut off" as an ETHNIC people God is still saving a people (remnant) from Israel as the remnant is NEVER CUT OFF and grafted back in again, but the ETHNIC RACE of people are in regard to God's purposes of redemption.

    Justification by faith does not mean justification by faithfulness and that is exactly what is required in your explanation in the final analysis - by your maintaining doctrine. Lot is given as example of the saved even as by fire from Sodom and yet the last words we read about Lot in the Old Testament is that he is drunk and committing incest and yet the next words we read in the Bible from Peter is that he was a saved man nevertheless. Hence, justification does not rest or depend upon personal faithfulness to God but upon the personal faithfulness of Christ to God. Your response to what I just said is the expected response that Paul voices in Romans 6:1.



     
    #18 Dr. Walter, Jun 2, 2010
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  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Yet one has to admit that there is no forward glance in the language of the 4th commandment as written in stone and that Adam and Eve could not possibly have received the Sabbath as a holy day thinking of future redemption or salvation in anyway.

    In addition we have the Isaiah 66 reference to Sabbath continuing into the New Earth and being applicable to "all mankind" as a day of worship.

    Exegesis would not allow us to edit Isaiah's text to make Sabbath refer to "some other day".


    1. There is no mention at all in Lev 23 of a "First day Sabbath"
    2. There is no mention at all in Lev 23 that a first day sabbath "characterizes all of these feasts"
    3. There is no indication at all in Lev 23 that by keeping the 7th day Sabbath you have kept all of the annual feasts - because they are in "addition" and they are not given until Sinai.


    The New Covenant of Heb 8:6-11 is the One Gospel under which all OT saints (as those listed in Heb 11) were saved - then, at that time.

    The Sabbath of the New Covenant is contained in the Law of God for in the New Covenant the Law of God is written on the heart and mind (As Jeremiah states and Paul affirms in Heb 8).

    There is no "resurrection day is a sign and seal" in all of scripture.

    1. The Heb 9 discussion of the Old Covenant is merely a reference to the liturgy and services of the OT period when the sanctuary was in place.

    Thus it is a type of the spiritual old covenant. But the saints of the OT could only have been saved by the "One Gospel" Gal 1:6-11 and so in Heb 4 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also".


    2. Being saved as a promise - is still what happens today "IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9. The promises of God are still the hope of the saints whose faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen" for now we see in a glass darkly.


    There is no "new Sabbath day" language in all of scripture.

    There is "Sabbath done away with" in all of scripture.

    There is the Sabbath of Isaiah's day - (context in keeping with exegesis) that is to be observed in the New Earth however (Isaiah 66)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Easy accusation to make - more difficult to prove from scripture.

    ;)

    Gal 5:4 states that they "have fallen from Grace" and "have been SEVERED from Christ" - there is no case in all of scripture where this is a description of the saved condition nor is it a promise in the Gospel that the lost are to by grace occupy such a position once they are saved.

    on the contrary - in Romans 11 Paul makes the point explicitly that the individual salvation of gentiles is in question if they do not remain standing by faith.


    Paul states that salvation coming to gentiles is specifically the issue - then Paul singles out those gentiles who "stand by faith" and in fact are grafted as wild branches into Christ.

    Individual salvation is impossible to miss.

    Heb 6:4-6 speaks to a specific type losing salvation where they cannot be grafted in again -- but Romans 11 speaks specifically to yet another situation where they CAN be grafted in "again" IF "They do not continue in unbelief".

    1. There is no such thing as "ethnic group that stand by faith" - and no mention of such a thing in all of scripture - much less Romans 11

    2. The gentiles as an ethnic group were the entire population of the earth (minus a few million Jews at the time) and were overwhelmingly pagans.

    3. In Romans 1 Paul states that the pagan world was not saved at all. Nor where they standing by faith.

    4. The Romans 11 warning to "you who stand only by your faith" is to the reader of the letter of Romans - in Rome - not to the pagans worshipping false gods. This is not a warning to the lost about "becoming lostER".

    Your argument is with the text.

    Rom 2

    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
    6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
    10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


    11 For there is no partiality with God.
    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
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