"The Freedom Crusade"

Discussion in 'Politics' started by KenH, Nov 5, 2005.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Interesting article. Much of what Condi stated is what Sharansky has been saying for years. As to the issue of Egypt, Pakistan, et al, I would, and I think the administration would argue that they are exerting pressure on them for democratic and human rights reform by what is occurring in Iraq, Afganistan, and even in Palestine, to a lesser extent. The more freedom the Egyptians see right next door, the more thye themselves will crave it.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. KenH

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    I found this to be a very poignant portion:

    "When John Quincy Adams declared that America should be the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all, but the champion and vindicator only of her own, he argued that the contrary policy would entail an insensible shift in our maxims "from liberty to force." By the maxims of force he meant what today would be called militarism--"a tendency", in Andrew Bacevich's words, "to see international problems as military problems and to discount the likelihood of finding a solution except through military means." That was the way of the "war system" of the European powers to which the Americans of Adams's day had such strong objections, and it is also the way of the contemporary United States."

    Events dictate that we reassess the idea the Bush administration has promulgated that our national security must be dependent upon the institutions that other nations use to govern themselves.
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I disagree strongly with Adams' isolationism. I also disagree that military force is the sole means of the Bush doctrine.

    I support the Bush doctrine of spreading democracy.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. KenH

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    Perhaps our national security strategy and the spreading democracy strategy should be divorced from each other?
     
  6. Bunyon

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    Joseph, I am not sure about "spreading democracy". I believe it was Franklin who said our form of govenment was wholly inadequate for any but a godly people. Remember Carters attempts at bringing democracy to Iran. We are much worse of now than we were with the Shaw of Iran.
     
  7. KenH

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    The author's analysis of the Iran situation in the 20th century I found to be quite interesing.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I disagree.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Franklin was wrong. Democracy is not a Biblical form of government. It is very secular by its nature. As for Carter, what can I say. He was and remains an idiot.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. KenH

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    Joseph,

    Our national security strategy we can be in control of. What happens when we start pressing for change in governmental institutions in other nations we cannot control in a democratic setting. The only way to control this is through force in placing the people we want in power and keeping them there. I don't think we want to go that direction in country after country after country.
     
  11. Bunyon

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    "Franklin was wrong."----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But Joseph, he was not saying it was a christian form of government as much as he was saying only people with Godly ideals can effectivly govern themselves. Self government does not work for ungodly people. They require a more authoritarian form of government.
     
  12. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Ken,

    Reagan never fired a shot against the Soviet Union...but he won the cold war. Military is not always the only option, and it is not all we are doing and have done in the war on terror.

    Bunyon,

    1. You assume that America is, or ever has been, Godly or even full of Godly people. I disagree. All are totally depraved regardless of their nationality, and it is only the grace of God which makes us righteous and worthy of Heaven.

    2. There are several secular / non-Christian societies in which democracy has and still is working: America and Israel being among them.

    3. UnGodly people do not require tyranny.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  13. Bunyon

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    I don't think the principal Franklen espoused was predicated on a perfect christlike society. I think when the populace embraces Godly principals as our populace did at our founding, we see the benefits in more stable governments and god given blessings. This really has nothing to do with weather or not we are a Christian nation. It is like if you and I decided to eat low fat with lots of vegitables and exercise regularly, we would be healtier and would get all the blessings that go along with it. Ungodly people do not have the social framwork for self government. God will establish order even in ungodly nations, see Babylon and Nebuchadnezzer. He was a tryant, but the Bible is clear, he was put on the throne by God himslef.

    Last time I checked, most of the voters in Isreal and the USA were not secular. Self government, remember?
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Bunyon,

    With all due respect, if you think the societies of our nation and Israel are Godly, and not secular, then I think you should really open your eyes and take a look around. You might also want to check out what the Bible says about how many follow the road to destruction and how many follow the ways of God:

    Matthew 7:13-14

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  15. Bunyon

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    If you are talking in absolutes, I agree with you. But if you are then even Abraham and David were Ungodley. We are or were a people after God's own heart for the same reason liers and murderers like Abraham and David were - because we had faith.

    I think it is relative- the more Godly prinicpals you incorperate into your way of life, the more stability and blessings you accrue.
     
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Doesn't the Bible refer to Godliness as absolute under the grace of God? I am thinking that either we are completely unGodly and carnal in our own secular ways of thinking, or we are saved by the grace of God, not by works, which makes us Godly. Please see Romans 3:9-31 . I don't think we can be Godly on our own accord. And certainly, Godliness is not relative. It is absolute.

    But if you are then even Abraham and David were Ungodley. We are or were a people after God's own heart for the same reason liers and murderers like Abraham and David were - because we had faith.[/QUOTE]

    1. Yes....as I said before, we are all totally depraved and there is not Godliness in us apart from the Grace of God.

    I think it is relative- the more Godly prinicpals you incorperate into your way of life, the more stability and blessings you accrue. [/QUOTE]

    Can one reject Christ, own slaves, murder millions of babies a year, wink at homosexuality, and still be Godly? I am curious how far you are willing to carry this idea of Godly relativism.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  17. KenH

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    Have we strayed too far from our founding ideals in the U.S. concerning our foreign policy? As the authors remind us:

    '"Among the acknowledged rights of nations", as Daniel Webster noted, is that of "establishing that form of government which it may deem most conducive to the happiness and prosperity of its own citizens, of changing that form as circumstances may require, and of managing its internal affairs according to its own will. The people of the United States claim this right for themselves, and they readily concede it to others." Americans, Webster noted, may "sympathize with the unfortunate or the oppressed everywhere in their struggles for freedom", but their imperative duty was to neither revolutionize nor "interfere in the government or internal policy of other nations."'
     
  18. Bunyon

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    I agree we are taking the wider path more and more, but the fact remains, and I think you will agree- the more biblical principals we incorparate, the more stable and functional we should be. That does not make sense to you? The more a society walks away from Godly wisdom the more they place themselves at peril. We see it with the OT Isreal. When they lived by God's principals and recognized him as the source of there blessing, they were strong and stable. When they rejected God, all kinds of calamities befell them. Why do you think this principal would not be at work in our case also?

    Even when Isreal was blessed and under God's favor they could not be called Godly in an absolute sense. If absolute Godliness was the only thing that benefited a Nation, God would have burned us out of existance long ago because no Nation has achieved that.
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I think I have heard this kind of gibberish before from the America First isolationists of WW2. It sounds so familiar to me. BTW, wasn't it Japan who attacked us and not Germany? Did FDR take his eye off the ball?

    This was not happening in Iraq nor Afganistan. If it were, there would have been no need for Saddam to continually brutalize his own people the way he did, there would have been fair, free elections, and freedom of speech. The government would have had nothing to fear from their electorate as they would have been shouting the praises of the government from the rooftops without coersion. They would have also had the right to leave if they wanted to (emmigration). The fact is, the Iraqi and Afgan people were not happy and prosperous in any way under their old tyrannical governments.

    Yes. This is the immoral and UnGodly isolationism that allowed us to walk to the other side of the road and call it an internal conflict before Reagan became president. Reagan rejected this policy of detente (containment) outright and brought the Evil Empire to its knees and made the world more free and a better place in which to live. I also reject this outright. A good indicator of a government's intentions toward the rest of the world is the way they treat their own people.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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    1. Certainly, if we were a more Godly society, God would bless us.

    2. We never have been and still are not a Godly society. Yet, democracy has worked more or less. It is the best form of government on this earth.

    3. God sends the rain on the just and the unjust by his sovereign providence, and therefore, being more or less Godly is no indicator as to how democracy is going to work. Otherwise, America and Israel would have crumbled a long time ago.

    4. I am still waiting for you to answer my question in my last post. How far are you willing to go with your Godly relativism?

    Joseph Botwinick
     

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