Featured The Freedom of the Will

For example.......???? If I failed to answer any objection you have made I am unaware of it. Be more than happy to respond with Scripture and then deductive logic based upon that scripture. So just point out an example and we can continue where we left off. :jesus:

 

Ok, throw out the logical explanation which you admit is your explanation based on scripture. What scripture states clearly and explicitly that the unregenerated nature = fallen man - is enabled to choose righteousenss.

Gentlemen, I have to go take care of some personal business and may be away from the computer for a few hours. Don't let my silence during this time be intepreted as dodging any questions.

 

Yes, fallen man is responsible for losing their ability to be and to do good. Your arguement is with Christ (Mt. 19:17) and Paul (Rom. 3:10-12; 8:7-8) not with me. Yet without that ability they are accountable to obey the Law of God in EVERY POINT but are unable because they are responsible for losing that ability. Indeed, you are responsible to obey EVERY POINT of God's law as to fail in one point is to fail in ALL points. Tell me, do you have that ability to responsibly obey EVERY POINT without failing ONE POINT. If you cannot say yes, don't talk to me about responsibility equals ability.

 

Look, we have a huge impasse between us in regard to handling the word of God. I do not doubt the Holy Spirit gives understanding but he does not do it apart from responsible study of God's Word and God is not the author of confusion and therefore no interpretation of any text will contradict the immediate context in which it is found. If it does, then you are following the wrong spirit and have the wrong feeling as the objective Word of God is the final authority - Isa. 8:20 not your feelings.

You ever hear "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

My point exactly - You have no "will power" to serve God as any will empowered to serve God does not come from either your fallen nature or your regenerate nature but from the indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit.

 

Fallen man IS evil and CANNOT do good and that speaks directly of the will - Rom. 3:10-12; 8:7-8; Mt. 19:17. Fallen Man is DETERMINED to do evil and that is precisely what Romans 8:7 says as the "carnal mind" represents one Greek term that refers to the MIND SET or the WILL IN MOTION. "neither indeed CAN be" refers to ability.

Every scripture you cite above is jerked out of context. You confuse accountability to do good with ability to do good. You confuse "good" in the sight of men and "good" in the sight of God (Mt. 5:20, 46) which demands you do not sin as to break ONE POINT of God's law is to break EVERY POINT and "good" in God's judicial sight is breaking NO POINTS of the Law as anything less is a SINNER! Tell me are you RESPONSIBLE to keep God's Laws at least ONE POINT? Do you have the ability to keep EVERY POINT because that is what is demanded to keep ONE POINT. Hence, there is none good but one and that is God. Hence, the standard is "be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is PERFECT" - that is the righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees and all other religious men (Mt. 5:20, 46). There is NONE intrinsically good ("agathos" - Mt. 19:16-17). So don't confuse ability with responsibility to be and do "good" in God's sight with "good" in the sight of men.

First your sentence is irrational as "same time" and "some future date" are not possible as one precedes the other or else it would not be at some "FUTURE" date.

Second, The determined will to sin does not change at all in the unregerate nature before or after new birth. The "law of" indwelling sin that resides in the flesh represents the "old" man or the unregnerate nature in the child of God and it is jsut as resistant to good and God has it has ever been and you have no will power in either nature, fallen or regenerate to overcome it. You must find the power not IN YOU but in the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 7:18) as without the Spirit of Christ "you can do NOTHING" and thus your will is powerless. That is why it is God that must work IN the child of God "TO WILL" - Philip. 2:13 or don't you realize that by your own experience or are you still in Romans 7:14-25 and Galatians 5:16?????

Ah, you are now thinking in the right direction. The unregenerate nature before salvation could do nothing but sin and was determined to do nothing but sin and it is equally so AFTER salvation as the unregenerate nature has not changed one iota and must destroyed in death. God looks at the intent of the heart and the unregenerate heart is evil and it is from that kind of heart because the "old" heart "proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" that is why one first make the tree good before the fruit can be made good becuase the fruits are the product of the heart not vice versa as your doctrine teaches.

You are right, it is about the old nature which the saved man still possesses and which the lost man has nothing but - LOOK AT VERSES 8-9 and you will see it refers to the unregenerate state as well. In verses 8-9 to be "in the flesh" means a lost condition without the indwelling Spirit of God.

No, it is a truth applicable to the unregenerate nature in the lost and in the saved both equally as salvation does not alter the unregenerated nature at all - it still is at enmity toward God and not subject but in active resistance all the time and always whether in the lost man or the saved man and the only answer is death. Only PHYSICAL death will destroy in the saved man but in the mean time he must mortify it - put it to death NOT BY HIS WILL POWER but by the power of the INDWELLING SPIRIT OF GOD by first admitting he has no will power to defeat it and then yeild to the power of the indwelling Spirit of God - that is walking in the Spirit.

 

Amen!:thumbs::thumbs:

 

Precisely and that is why he cannot do it because it is contrary to WHAT HE IS by nature even though he has the power of choice. Likewise the fallen nature of man - he cannot choose contrary to WHAT HE IS by nature.

Precisely and neither can man due to his fallen nature as his nature is at war with God and not subject to His will - the law and "neither indeed can be". Just carry it though consistently from what you conclude about God's nature to man's nature. God's nature is intrinsically holy while man's nature is without instrinsic goodness and is unholy (Mt. 19:17).

Carry it through consistently! Does God only "have" an unfallen nature in addition to some other nature???? No! Man does not "have" an unfallen nature in addition to some other kind of nature but that is what HE IS by nature just as holiness is what GOD IS by nature. Man IS unholy by nature - the fallen nature - THE ONLY NATURE HE POSSESES as that is what HE IS by nature.

Paul denies that fallen man has such options:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


You say there are some, and Paul says there are none. Who shall we believe? Paul is not talking about saved people but the lost condition of man - read on.

 

Well brother, I am not in the buisness or have the ability to change anyone to believe anything. Just read the debate and comment where you will.