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The Freewillers Shell Game part 1.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Nov 1, 2006.

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  1. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I'm glad you're passionate. But the extent of your feelings is in no way related to whether the doctrine is true or false, and constant inflammatory language does nothing for your case - except to make it easier to dismiss.

    I haven't noticed Calvinism being given a free ride here; seems there a number of vocal free-willers willing to take up the debate.

    So far as I know, no one has been given the boot for taking up for free will. Or for any position on TULIP, for that matter. For being uncivil, discourteous and rude - yes.

    [quoteThe end results is Tulipitis a sin sick miss guided debilitating ailment. [/quote]

    Words guaranteed to get you a dispassionate hearing.

    Indeed. As John Wesley said of George Whitefield:

    I suppose it will be so, but no sadder, I would think, than for Arminians, semi-Pelagians, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and those of any belief, sect or denomination who are damned.

    Damnation, it seems to me, would be pretty lousy, no matter what brand of soteriology you held to on earth.
     
    #221 rsr, Nov 5, 2006
  2. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    You are assuming God did not involve Himself in what He foreknew. You think our view is that God had to see the future without His involvement, before He could know what He had to change? The extent that you will go to, in your arguments, so limits God it is fascinating.
     
    #222 Blammo, Nov 5, 2006
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    If God has His involvement in man...how far can God go with not hurting freewill? :)

    This is where it gets good folks. Stay turned.
     
    #223 Jarthur001, Nov 5, 2006
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You got blew out of the water on this shell James.
     
    #224 Brother Bob, Nov 5, 2006
  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    how so bob?
    :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin: :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #225 Jarthur001, Nov 5, 2006
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Yes, He foreknows who believes but the foreknow is for man and not God for God sees all and everlasting to everlasting.

    Romans, chapter 11
    1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    "2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

    "3": Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    "4": But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    "5": Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    (By Grace are ye saved through faith "believing") You must believe that I am He.
    "6": And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    "7": What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

    "8": (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    "9": And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

    "10": Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

    "11": I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    There is your answer but I know you will not have it even though it is scripture.

    [​IMG]
     
    #226 Brother Bob, Nov 5, 2006
  7. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    God can do whatever He wants to do. My free-will does not limit God. God gave me the ability to think, feel, reason, and choose. If I use those freedoms, that God gave me, in a wrong way, there are consequences.

    -Can God influence me? Absolutely.
    -Does my freedom to choose place God into subjection to me? No way!!!
    -Could God cause me to have a heart attack at this very moment to accomplish something that we would never understand in this life? Absolutely?
    -Would that violate my free-will? I can't imagine how.
    -If I decided, exercising my free-will, I am going to walk up the road and stop a train with my bare hands, and I failed, does that mean I did not really have the ability to decide to stop the train?
     
    #227 Blammo, Nov 5, 2006
  8. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    So...God did not know till God learn this by seeing, or did God know this before He saw?
    Did God also know who would not believe? You guys seem to always leave this out.

    Romans, chapter 11
    1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Notice here as I use the word forknew as the freewillers use it.

    God forknew Israel,...and in this case it is not based on believe...is it? :) As a matter of fact, the text says...they killed the prophets...digged down the altars...and still God did not cast AWAY his people. Where is the election by forseeing??? not here...is it??

    how about "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men"? well...look who did this. God RESERVED to Himself. those that were reserved..did not bow down.


    LOOK!!! I found it. Election is by grace...not because God foresaw ones believeing. Now how about that?? do you believe it???


    where does it say election by foreseeing?? not here bob.


    GRACE GRACE GRACE GRACE Praise GOD!!!

    election because God foresaw? aaaaw no. Election of the ones they killed the prophets...by grace. :)

    No no...Bob..I believe Gods word...do you?? :)

    Time to move those shells....i mean time to change the meaning again.

    In Christ...James
     
    #228 Jarthur001, Nov 5, 2006
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  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I agree. And God can elect who He wants...for His only pleasure...right?

    :)
    :)
    :)

    Or no?????
     
    #229 Jarthur001, Nov 5, 2006
  10. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    Yes, like seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
     
    #230 Blammo, Nov 5, 2006
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Thank you.

    God indeed is in control. God chooses by grace not by foreseen faith, or else choosing is not needed.

    Most would dodge this Blammo. That is all I have tonight. I got work to do.

    Later...

    In Christ..James
     
    #231 Jarthur001, Nov 5, 2006
  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Will you look at the time? 20 pages already. And the discussion was so edifying and free of condescension and name calling ....
     
    #232 rsr, Nov 6, 2006
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