The Glorious future for Israel !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, May 15, 2012.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    What are the Promises that seem to show a Glorious future for National Israel i.e Ezk 37:21-28

    Is that really National Israel, the physical descendants of Abraham in view here ?

    We shall now observe this promise to Israel in Ezk 37:21-28

    1.Its promised that God will gather the children of Israel from among the nations and bring them into their own land vs 21

    2. God shall make them one nation vs 22

    3. There will be one King over them, that is one Shepherd, David vs 22,24

    4. They shall be cleansed from their transgressions vs 23 see Heb 8:12

    5. They shall be the people of God, and God will be their God vs 23 see Heb 8:10

    6. They shall have the Land given to Jacob forever vs 25 see Heb 11:8-9; Gen 17:8; 28:14; Lk 1:32-33

    7. God will be in the midst of them forever vs 28 see Rev 21:22; 22:3

    Now there is no doubt that these things are yet to be fulfilled, but again, to which Israel do they pertain ?

    We, have National Israel, the physical seed of Abraham, We Have Jesus Christ, The Seed of Abraham who is Called Israel, and we have all believers in Christ who are the seed of Abraham[Israel] spiritually Gal 3:29 !

    Is National Israel in view here in Ezk 37: 21ff ? No, its not National Israel the Physical seed of Abraham because they were not the children of God and Promise according to Rom 9:8


    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    They are in fact contrasted to the Children of promise !

    Also Matt 8:10-12 applies to them :


    10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Now, who are these Children of the kingdom that will be cast out and not partake of the Kingdom with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob [remember Ezk 37:25]

    The Children or sons of the kingdom is a Semitic term for National Israel, and Jesus is saying they lost their claim to this eternal kingdom, much like what is said here Matt 21:43

    43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    So when we combine these two together, we see no promise of National Israel being restored, but the Gentiles, the Spiritual seed of Abraham , those from the east and the west shall inherit the eternal kingdom with The Patriarchs instead..

    Lets Comp Matt 8:11 with Ezk 37:21

    Ezk 37:21

    21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

    Matt 8:11

    11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    The Kingdom of Heaven is that Eternal land of Promise..

    Also, God is no respecter of Persons Acts 10:34-35

    34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    This means God will not show any special favor to anyone because of the national origin, but to those who fear Him in every nation. National Israel is not a Holy Nation, they despised the Messiah, and the believers in Christ are the Holy Nation 1 Pet 2:9-10

    9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    God has indicated that He will not show special favor to any nation by ethnicity Acts 10:34, and He is not going to change His Mind..
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The hog is again in the wash - hogwash - Rom. 11:25-32!
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    has God cast away His own people/ God forbid, as the Lord used the hardness of national Isreal in order to bring in the gentiles into the peoples of God!

    Guess that the Apostle paul misheard from God, Eh?
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    As God used the hardness of National Israel in order to bring in the Gentiles, he will use the hardness of the Gentiles to save "all Israel" - the nation.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    With the Incarnation and crucifixion God's purpose for "National Israel" was finished. God will bring his elect to Salvation.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Since you are not speaking by inspiration I will simply file your comment in can #13 and takes Paul's word instead - Rom. 11:25-28.

    1. What has been cut off is what will be grafted in "again."

    a. The "remnant" has never been cut off
    b. It is national ethnic Israel that has been cut off

    2. The "Israel" of verse 25 is the Israel of verse 26 - you know? The Israel that was set aside until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    3. The "Israel" of verse 26 is the "they" in verse 28 who are presently "enemies of the gospel" for the sake of gentiles but "touching election" these present "enemies of the gospel" are "beloved for the Father's sake."

    4. The "Israel" in Romans 9:6 is National Jewish Israel among whom are twice born ethnic Jews illustrated by such persons as "Isaac...Racheal...Jacob"

    5. The promised children are taken from two different sources - National ethnic Israel and Gentile nations and National enthnic Israel has been TEMPORARILY set aside until "the fulness of the gentiles be come in" and then God returns to save the Elect Nation of Israel.

    6. The "Israel" of Romans 11:26 is the "Jacob" of the covenant in verse 27 which is NEVER used as a descriptive for Gentile elect.

    7. It is the ethnic Nation of Israel that is the "elect" nation among all other "nations" and in God's own timing all His elect whether they are "indivdiual" elect or "national" elect will be saved.
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    We have looked at why Ezk 37:21-28 could not be referring to National Israel.

    The second Israel, the Lord Jesus Christ, we know the prophecy cannot be referring to Him, for He was never scattered among the nations or heathen, and the prophecy has a plural fulfillment as in vs

    26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

    That Leaves us with one more possibility, the Israel of God, all those who believe in Christ..

    Lets see how this fits !

    #1. God will gather the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they are scattered..

    Is that not what the high Priest prophesied about in regards to Christ death ? Jn 11:49-52

    49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

    50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

    51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

    52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

    This is compatible also with Jesus words Jn 10:15,16,18,19

    15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Was not that the underline motive for Jesus sending His disciples unto all nations Matt 28:18-19

    18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Amen, thats the reason for the great commission, its for in the gathering in of the seed of Abraham in all Nations, according to God's promise Gen 17:5

    5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
     
  8. Agnus_Dei

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    How do you think the Palestinian Christians of today fair in the eyes of Israel? The answer just may surprise you…The Church I attend was founded by families of Palestinian Christians, some from Gaza or the West Bank and others from Lebanon and the ones from Gaza or the West Bank were treated harshly by the Israelis…

    Israel today is taking every advantage of the dispensationalist views of America and laughing all the way to the bank…as we pour billions into Israel…

    According to the New Testament, the standard against which all doctrine and Biblical interpretations
    must be tested, God’s covenant with Abraham and his descendents has been fulfilled through Christ and His followers, not through a secular state, for Christ said, “My Kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

    It is true that there are some Old Testament prophecies that speak of a restoration of Israel following the destruction of Israel by Assyria and of Judah by Babylon. For example, Isaiah wrote, “It shall come to pass that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left” (Isaiah 11:11). Jeremiah prophesied, “For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers” (Jeremiah 16:15). Micah said, “I will surely gather the remnant of Israel” (Micah 12:12).

    Indeed, God did restore Israel. The book of Ezra tells how Cyrus, the King of Persia who had conquered Babylon, allowed the Jews to return from exile and to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. Significantly the beginning of Ezra states that the events recorded are in fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah (Ezra1:1). Thus the Old Testament prophecies cited in support of the modern state of Israel were fulfilled long ago when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity.

    I believe the time has come for Christians to carefully reevaluate an attitude towards modern Israel which is based on faulty premises. Both Church history and the Holy Scriptures teach clearly that Christ and His Church are the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. Saint Paul tells us that those who follow Christ in faith are the true children of Abraham and heirs to the promises made by God to the Old Testament patriarch. The prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel have already been fulfilled and should not be applied carte-blanche to the modern state of Israel.

    The Zionist State was born in conflict between the claims of Jews to a homeland and the rights of the native Palestinian inhabitants of the Holy Land. Christians should, therefore, judge Israel on the same basis as other nations, and not accord to the Jewish State a special status above reproach. Indeed, it is clear that while both sides have committed atrocities, the Zionists have disregarded the rights of the Palestinian people to national self-determination. Christians owe no special allegiance to Israel, but should expect the Jewish State to adhere to the same principles of justice and decency demanded of other nations. Indeed, Christians should call the people of Israel to recognize the legitimate right of all people to the same national self-determination that they claim for themselves.
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    what is overlooked by mnay is that the Kingdom of the messiah was offered to national isreal at his first coming, nation rejected Him as their messiah, so we than went into Church Age, and right now, BOTh jews/gentiles saved by same messiah, but in last days, God turn back to national Isreal after rapture of Church, and THAT generation of living jews will be saved by returning messiah, and isreal will get their promised Kingdom at that time!
     
  10. OldRegular

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    I am not sure they are knowingly taking advantage the dispensational error so popular in this country but they are surely profiting from that view. Certainly our foreign policy should not be based on such a doctrine but it is.

    I support Israel but only because they are a democracy and a thorn in the side of Islam!

    I agree! :thumbsup:

    That is my belief also. God chose the nation Israel for the purpose of bringing Jesus Christ into the world. With the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ that mission was finished. Jews will be saved the same as anyone, one at a time!

    Agree. Our policy related to the nation Israel should not be based on the false premise that they are still God's chosen people but on what is best for this country.

    I believe that the nation Israel exists because Europe needed a salve [an atonement of sorts] for ignoring the treatment of Jews by Nazi Germany.
     
  11. Agnus_Dei

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    The fact is Yeshua1 is that your view is a ninetieth century dispensationalist view rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby and the Brethren movement…his views are that the “nation of Israel” , and not necessarily the state of Israel today is distinct from the Christian Church…

    This view is completely foreign to the collective Church as a whole from the apostolic times…
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    God still has His plans for national isreal, it happens at end of days, great tribulation, wrapped up at Second Coming of Christ!
     
  13. OldRegular

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    You obviously are not speaking by inspiration or understanding of Scripture!

    People are saved one at a time and that includes Jews! Dispensational doctrine regarding both Israel and their false doctrine of a "parenthisis church" is really a slap in the face of the Church for which Jesus Christ died.

    Acts 20:28
    Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    Thats the Truth !
     
  15. OldRegular

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    A most hearty Amen to that!:wavey::laugh:
     
  16. OldRegular

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    The above is the most serious error of the false doctrine of dispensationalism. If Jesus Christ came to establish a messianic kingdom and did not how could He say the following?

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    If dispensational doctrine regarding the messianic kingdom and the so-called "parenthesis" church is correct then Jesus Christ could not say He had finished the work of the Father; He failed in His mission. But that is impossible since God tells us:

    Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Also note that Jesus Christ is the Living Word:

    John 1:1-5
    1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2. The same was in the beginning with God.
    3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Isn't it wonderful! God the Father sent His Son to establish the Church in New Testament form and He did. If you don't believe this read Jesus Christ's admonition and explanation to the two men on the road to Emmaus, Luke 24:13-35.
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    he did NOT come to set up the messiah age at his first coming though, as THAT will occur at his second coming!

    His first coming was to die as the messiah, that he died to secure salvation for His own....

    second coming will be to usher in messiah age....

    You make same mistakes jewish peoples do, as they see Him NOT bringing in messiah age on earth as proof NOT the messiah!
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    God will make one nation of them !



    The next promise in Ezk 37:22 following that God will gather the children of Israel from among the heathen is this:

    22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;

    Notice, the I will part ! That means God is Sovereign and He is doing this Himself..

    The elect, who had been scattered throughout the world are become one Nation ! 1 Pet 2:9-10

    9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    The psalmest says Ps 33:12

    Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

    The One Nation is One Body Eph 3:6

    6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Eph 4:4

    4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    So given this biblical evidence, the Believer in Christ can fit the description of being made into one Nation !

    Jesus said that the Kingdom shall be taken from national Israel and given to a NATION Matt 21:43

    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    You need to make up your mind!
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    First, I believe that salvation is the same in all ages from Genesis to Revelation and so I do not believe in any kind of special Dispensational salvation.

    Second, "all the flock" in Acts 20:28 is the same identical "flock" in Acts 20:29 and it is the only kind of flock that those kind of elders can be "overseers" of!

    Third, There is no church prior to the book of Matthew. There is no "body of Christ" prior to the book of Matthew (Mt. 16:18; 18:15-17). Because there is no "foundation" of the church prior to the setting in of the apostles (Eph. 2:20)and anyone with two ounces of common sense knows that you begin building something with the "foundation" and the apostles and New Testament prophets are the "foundation" of the church and the Apostles were set first in the church (1 Cor. 12:28).

    Last, your non-dispensational church is pure myth. The only reference to the "church" in the Old Testament is merely the meaning of "assembly" in reference to a local visible assemblyof Israel around Mount Sinai (Acts 7) which has nothing to do with the Church of God that Jesus built (Mt. 16:18).
     

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