The Gospel...Is it a God ordained means for regeneration or eternal salvation ?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, May 11, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    To those who will post, I request that you:

    1. Define what eternal salvation is;
    2. For whom eternal salvation is;
    3. Who is the Author and Finisher of Eternal
    salvation;
    4. How was eternal salvation appropriated or
    applied to those for whom it was intended;
    5. Define what the Gospel is;
    6. Provide scriptures that show very clearly
    that whenever the word gospel was used in
    the Scriptures, the intent was for the gospel
    to be the means of salvation ordained by God.
    7. Provide scriptures that unless one hears,
    understands, and receives the gospel message
    one cannot be saved.
     
  2. Theo

    Theo
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    Were not all of these questions answered in the "Cavinistic comments" thread? Hmmm...

    The question you have yet to answer is:

    Will someone stand before God the Father as the elect of God, and ask "Who is Jesus?"???

    Many passages were given you about the exclusive way to the Father. Those are Christ's words, not mine. Your problem is not with me, it is with Him, for He is the One who said "no one comes to the Father but by Me".

    A great model for salvation is given here:

    Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
    Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    A Jesus-less salvation is no salvation at all. Those are His words, not mine.

    Please show us all a passage that says "believe you are elect, and you will be saved"...

    As I said before, Hyper-Calvinism downplays the responsibilities of man, by exalting the Sovereignty of God.

    Is it not more logical to say God will have His elect believe in the One who secured their pardon?

    Thanks,

    Theo
     
  3. LaymansTermsPlease

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    Hey, funny how some of the Calvinists here seem to think that all Arminians are Pelagians, and that now maybe I should start posting about all Calvinists being Gnostics [​IMG]

    Just Kidding of course. I hate blanket statements about entire groups, when of course, many different views are held by folks who get lumped in together.

    Anyways, speaking to the Gnostic form of Calvinism, I found this article interesting.
    Neo-Gnostic Calvinism
     
  4. LaymansTermsPlease

    LaymansTermsPlease
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    Hey, funny how some of the Calvinists here seem to think that all Arminians are Pelagians, and that now maybe I should start posting about all Calvinists being Gnostics [​IMG]

    Just Kidding of course. I hate blanket statements about entire groups, when of course, many different views are held by folks who get lumped in together.

    Anyways, speaking to the Gnostic form of Calvinism, I found this article interesting.
    Neo-Gnostic Calvinism
     
  5. Eric B

    Eric B
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    That article basically describes groups like Outside the Camp.
     
  6. LaymansTermsPlease

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  7. Theo

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    Hey, funny how some of the Calvinists here seem to think that all Arminians are Pelagians, and that now maybe I should start posting about all Calvinists being Gnostics [​IMG]

    Just Kidding of course. I hate blanket statements about entire groups, when of course, many different views are held by folks who get lumped in together.

    Anyways, speaking to the Gnostic form of Calvinism, I found this article interesting.
    Neo-Gnostic Calvinism
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hey there LaymansTermsPlease,

    I was actually talking about Hyper-Calvinists, but I see what you are saying. Though I don't care for blanket statements either, it's kinda hard not to make 'um sometimes! I get lumped in with the Hyper-Calvinists all the time. I am told many times that I believe stuff that I actually do not believe, it makes for good conversation though! hehehe

    I love the Monergism web-site. From what I understand, Outside the Camp is a Hyper-Calvinistic web-site.

    Did you agree with what you read about the "Neo-Gnostic Calvinism" stuff?
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    To Theo's questions. No. There are no straightforward answers that were provided in the previous thread. And I already answered your questions about those who will ask 'who is Jesus' when I told you that a man's theology or creed on this plane we call time in no way adds or takes away from an eternal salvation planned and executred for him by the Eternal God from eternity past.

    Now, it's your turn. Provide the answers to the above question. Oh, and I would like to state that those whom you call Hyper-Calvinists among your fellow Calvinists, I will probably call true Calvinists for their correct understanding of what salvation is, if they believe similarly as I do. But let me say from the outset that Calvinists are really more closely akin to Arminians than to those who hold to belief like mine. So, it really doesn't surprise me if you find an agreeing spirit with what Skandelon is saying.
     
  9. Theo

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    Hehehe, alrighty then...
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    by Theo:

    :confused: :rolleyes: What. Provide the Scriptures for your doctrine that the preaching of the Gospel is the God-ordained means for the salvation of the elect, that it is the cause of one's salvation, the means of one's regeneration, and that in so saying, it does not necessarily follow that God needs the voice of willing and obedient men to go and preach in order for Him to save. Now, do you why I asked if you believed in angel visitations, or tongues, or visions and dreams ? Because if you say the preaching of the gospel is the God-ordained means for salvation to be a reality to the elect, and then you and Skandelon turn right around and say God does not 'need' men (and so accuse me of putting words into his mouth), then, let me ask you the same question Paul asked:

    How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
     
  11. Frogman

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    So the gospel is peace? :confused:

    Just kidding brother. I understand, but that is a very difficult passage, it has been so much hurt by those wishing to put God's Sovereignty beneath a 'gospel' preacher's obedience.

    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

    The gospel brings an awakening of the individual to the fact of the quickening of the spirit by the Power of God unto salvation which is the gospel, which is the Holy Spirit.

    Quickening requires only the power of God, believing the message of the gospel, in some measure, requires previous quickening, there is not scripture that teaches any other order; there is not one scenario from the NT that can provide any other semblance of order and remain consistent that man does not do anything to save himself.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  12. Eric B

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    5solas is the same type of thing as Outside the Camp. Doesn't even have to be "hyper" or "gnostic"; just another formof one-upmanship. Of course, their "complete understanding" was sovereingly given them by God, not themselves. (though it wasn't around the first 3 centuries of the church; was anyone saved back then?).
    But they deny Christ alone as much as what they criticize, because salvation is faith in the doctrine of preterition or reprobation for all who do not believe. IF you don't believe that, you are trusting in your own righteousness, or "faith in Christ plus their own faith". It is the fallacy of faith as a good work.
    With all the complaints of misrepresentation or claiming to know what the person believes (and their concern about "name-calling; mocking their understanding of sovereignty, etc) these days, I don't see how they can judge others belief as self-righteousness.
     
  13. Theo

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    Ok, since you claim you answered a question you said you didn't understand there, please show us a passage that says we can come to the Father some other way than through Christ!

    If you desire to resort to comments about who I agree with and dis-agree with, that has no relevance here. I dis-agree with you and Skandelon on certain things, but I also agree with Skandelon and you on certain things, so what was your purpose in those comments again???

    If you want to claim that "True Calvinists" are those that believe similarly to you, then take a peek at these things:

    Quotations from Calvin's Commentaries:

    God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, but the ingratitude of the world is the reason why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few. (Synoptic Gospels 1:116)

    As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief. (Acts 1:92)

    Though it is offered to all for salvation, it does not yield this fruit in any but the elect. (Synoptic Gospel. 2:257)

    God ...shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to faith in Christ ...For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. (John 1:125)

    ... the end and design of public teaching...that all should in common be called; but God's purpose is different; for he intends, according to his own secret counsel, to draw to himself the elect, and he designs to take away all excuse from the reprobate. (Joel- Obadiah 252)

    Paul makes grace common to all men, not because it in fact extends to all, but because it is offered to all. (Romans 117-118)

    Christ ... kindles for all indiscriminately the torch of his gospel; but all have not the eyes of their minds opened to see it, but on the contrary Satan spreads the veil of blindness over many. (General Epistles 273-274)

    God commands [the gospel] to be offered indiscriminately to all. (Genesis 1:503)

    [God]...commands his threatenings to be proposed to the elect, and reprobate, in common. (Genesis 1:255)

    God's mercy is offered for the worst of men. (Four Last Books of Moses 3:240)

    It is our duty to pray for all who trouble us; to desire the salvation of all men. (Psalm 4:283)

    Elsewhere in the above book of Calvin quotations, we have the following indications that Calvin believed in the free indiscriminate offer of the gospel:

    The gospel is to be preached indiscriminately to the elect and to the reprobate: but the elect alone come to Christ, because they have been taught of God. (Isaiah 4:146)

    God offers his word indiscriminately to the good and bad; but it works by his spirit in the elect…as to the reprobate…it renders them without excuse. (Ezekiel 1:113)

    You see anything here pinoybaptist? The Gospel is given to all, but all do not recieve it, as I have said all along, but you call this double talk, right? You say the Gospel is for the saints, I agree with Calvin and say that the Gospel is used by God to draw His elect.

    You don't understand Calvinism, if you think you hold to what you call "True Calvinism".
     
  14. Theo

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  15. Frogman

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    The above quote is taken from the website you posted, btw, a great source, thanks very much!

    Notice, there is no claim that 'hyper-Calvinism' can, will, or does, or shall have kill, kills, is killing, or will have killed the Spirit of God, I thought that was an interesting point that just jumped off the quote at me. See, we may witness the death of an untrue 'spirit' in man, but not in the farthest stretch of the doctrine of Sovereign Grace will we ever witness the death of the Spirit of God in the elect. That is the issue.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    Okay, let me answer my own post, since those who should would not.

    1. Eternal salvation is that condition of being eternally saved from the coming righteous wrath of God on a human race that is fallen on account of the disobedience of one (Romans 5:12) which disobedience brought about sin and death which was then passed on to all men.

    2. Eternal salvation is for those whom God calls His people (Mt.1:21; Lk.1:67-68; Lk.1:76-79; Isaiah 53:8;) whom He foreknew and predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, whom He called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:29-30) and whom He saved based on His mercy alone with not one iota of help of form of righteousness from them be it in the form of obedience or inherent faith. (Titus 3:5).

    3. God is the Author of the Eternal Salvation of His elect, the One who planned in Eternity past and having planned, wrote down the names of those whom He wished to save out of a fallen race (Isaiah 45:22; Isaiah 51:1;Micah 7:7-8;Exodus 33:19; Exodus 32:32 ; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 13:8;Rev. 20:15;)

    4. Eternal Salvation was applied to those for whom it was intended and their redemption made sure by the blood of Christ, the Lamb of Glory, who was slain from the foundation of the world, whose shed blood is sufficient to cover the redemption of those for whom it was shed, and them only, who were born before His incarnation, during His time on earth, and after His ascenscion, their redemption foreshadowed by the many types and pictures in the Old Testament, and substantiated in time , at Calvary. (Rev. 13:8; 1 Peter 1:18-20; Rev. 7:14; Re. 5:9; John 19:29-30; Ps. 2:7;Isaiah 53; Eph. 1:7; Eph. 2:3; Col. 1:14; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 9:11-14).

    Salvation and redemption of the elect is a finished fact. Obtained by them already, thru the atoning and redemptive work of Christ.
    The gift of eternal life has been given, not simply proferred, with conditions that you believe when somebody preaches the gospel to you.
    The preaching of the gospel is not the cause of one's salvation. God, in Christ, redeemed His people and reconciled them to Himself, independent of anything. He is God alone in eternity past and needed no one and nothing when He created, He was alone at the cross as Savior, needing no one and nothing to secure the redemption of His people before, during, or after.

    HALLELUJAH TO THE LAMB OF GOD !!
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Theo said:
    Okay, if you say you're not saying the Gospel regenerates, then I withdraw the charge, and apologize.

    But, I still say that God does not use the Gospel to draw men unto Himself. John 12:32 says, 'and I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me.' He is the one who draws men to Himself, thru the cross.
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    5. The Gospel - Good News. A proclamation. (from Strong's concordance).

    6. No scriptures showing that the gospel was the ordained means of salvation (or regeneration);

    There are 98 instances of the word gospel in the whole Bible. None of them even remotely connects the gospel as a means to regenerate, or draw men to Christ, or belief in the gospel as a qualification for salvation. In the next post, I will post all 98 of them.

    7. There are no scriptures to show that unless one hears, understand, receives, or believes (let me add this word) the gospel message, one cannot be saved (eternally) or regenerated.

    For those who believe that doctrine, please, tell me, how will an infant who never saw the light of day be saved ? How will God save the mentally incompetent ? Don't accuse me of creating a strawman, as some will surely will say I'm doing. These are valid questions if intellect and hearing must be requirements for pre-regeneration.
     
  19. Theo

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    Okay, if you say you're not saying the Gospel regenerates, then I withdraw the charge, and apologize.

    But, I still say that God does not use the Gospel to draw men unto Himself. John 12:32 says, 'and I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me.' He is the one who draws men to Himself, thru the cross.
    </font>[/QUOTE]And where is the proclamation of the cross? Is it not the Gospel????????

    So now you agree that God is a God of means? God uses the "cross" and not the Gospel?

    John 12:32 does not give a positive affirmation of your position.

    Why won't you answer my question? If it is Christ's cross that "draws", then will there be those who are elect that stand before God the Father and "Who is this Jesus, and what is this cross you speak of"???
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    Partial list of the 98 instances of the use of the word gospel in the whole Bible:

     

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