The Gospel Millenium In Obedience to Scripture

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Oct 19, 2015.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Here is an interesting read...which part do you enjoy the best? tell us why you like it!
    http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/prophecy/gospel-millennium/sermon.php

    How do we know Revelation 20 is not Premillennial?
    1. The last kingdom was in place in 65 A.D., and it cannot be moved; there is no future shaking to introduce a radical kingdom of Jesus ruling in an earthly temple with Jews (Heb 12:22-29).
    2. Jesus Christ is coming one more time to gather His elect and burn up the wicked (II Thess 1:7-10).
      1. Paul is very plain that all things are wrapped up with the second coming (II Thes 1:7-12; 2:1-8).
      2. This denies multiple comings before and after a millennium of various premillennial schemes.
      3. There would be no wicked nations in the four quarters of the earth for Satan to stir up to battle!
    3. There is no new kingdom after His second coming – He delivers up the kingdom (I Cor 15:23-28).
    4. The "rapture" of saints to glory occurs at the judgment of the wicked (I Thess 4:13-18; 5:1-11).
    5. Peter, an informed and inspired Jew, was looking for new heavens and new earth (II Peter 3:1-18).
      1. If he looked for a new heaven and earth at Christ's coming, he did not expect a millennium.
      2. If he looked for melting elements by fervent heat, he surely knew Paul's day (II Thess 1:7-9).
    6. No future kingdom is described, offered, or taught by Paul in any place in the New Testament.
    7. There is only one bodily resurrection of righteous and wicked in the Bible (Jn 5:28-29; Ac 24:15).
    8. There is no word of anything having to do with Israel, Jerusalem, a temple, or sacrifices in Rev 20.
    9. The symbolic language must be subject to the rest of the Bible, especially the New Testament.
    10. The end of time as Paul understood it was to occur at the second coming of Christ (I Cor 15:23-28).
    11. We discover that the features of the premillennial kingdom i.e. on earth, in Jerusalem, in a temple, of Jews, with lions and lambs together, animal sacrifices, and other ideas are nowhere to be found.
     
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  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Because of time I will address just a few of these for now, and if conversation is stirred up, address as needful.


    No need to read the article to address the points listed.


    We don't. In fact, Scripture is clear in both Testaments that the Coming of Messiah is for the purpose of establishing a Kingdom. While se all see that Christ's Kingdom was established at Pentecost, that does not nullify the many prophecies which show that there is still much left to be fulfilled.


    Revelation speaks of two Kingdoms yet to come, the Millennial Kingdom...


    Revelation 20

    King James Version (KJV)

    20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



    ...and the Eternal Kingdom...


    Revelation 21

    King James Version (KJV)

    21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



    And I will just point out that we cannot describe the Eternal State as "millennial."

    Nor should we ignore the teachings of Revelation in regards to a set period of time in which Satan will be bound (and he is not bound today), that the Tribulation Martyrs reign with Christ for this period (which first is called a period of one thousand years and secondly cannot have eternity in view because the earth has not passed away yet), and in this time we see the former things passed away.

    It is impossible to apply all of the Prophecy to this Age, and it is impossible to ignore that thousand years. It makes little difference how long one wants to make that period, it still has events which have not yet transpired and negates the need for all prophecy to be fulfilled.

    And if we build our doctrine with exclusive verses that might seem reasonable, but if we account for all prophecy, we see that there are two similar destructions of the enemies of God still to come:


    Revelation 19:17-21

    King James Version (KJV)

    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



    Revelation 20:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



    These two events are separated by the Millennial Kingdom.

    Whatever one tries to make the thousand years, that binding of Satan occurs after Christ's Return clearly seen in Revelation 19. Christ returns, Satan is bound for a thousand years, and then loosed for a short time. Then we see those who join with him in rebellion against God are again...destroyed.

    Two events.

    And we see this "supper" in Old Testament Prophecy which shows the Kingdom after the first destruction also seen in Revelation 19:


    Ezekiel 39

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

    2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

    3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

    4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

    5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.


    That after this period of destruction there will be a Kingdom is seen in the description of what will take place:


    7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

    8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

    9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

    10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

    11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

    12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.



    Two distinctly different events described in Revelation, yet the Prophecy of Ezekiel correlates to the destruction of God's enemies in Revelation 19. Here we see a description that speak of a seven year period after the Supper of the Great God. In the final destruction...the earth passes away:


    Revelation 20:9-11

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



    Continued...
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    2 Thessalonians 1:7-12

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

    12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


    Paul does not negate the teachings of Scripture here, but points out the everlasting destruction of those who are in view...those who have not obeyed the Gospel at the time of His Return. This does not nullify the rest of Prophecy.


    2 Thessalonians 2

    King James Version (KJV)

    2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



    Still nothing that nullifies the prophecy of Revelation or the Old Testament.

    This has in view the specific Return of Christ. Now if we correlate Paul's teaching here with Revelation, we combine the teachings and that makes it impossible to see this as the event described in Revelation 20.

    This is not the Great White Throne judgment, this is the Judgment of Christ on the physical world when He returns.


    Continued...
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    No, those passages have a specific event in mind, not the end of the world.

    When this universe passes out of existence the Prophecy describes it in great detail, and the time of that passing is clear:


    Revelation 20:11

    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.




    Revelation 21

    King James Version (KJV)

    21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea


    And this does not occur at Christ's Return. We are told what happens at that time.


    It is right there in the text:


    Revelation 20:7-8

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.



    That this is a separate event is made clear in both Old and New Testament Prophecy.

    Yet the denial of the thousand year reign of Christ is what has to be done in order to obscure the inspired timeline of events.



    1 Corinthians 15:23-28

    King James Version (KJV)

    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



    Nothing in this nullifies Revelation 19 and 20.

    There is a thousand year period between Christ's Return and the time at which there is no more death.


    Continued...
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    The Rapture of the Church involves only those in Christ, nothing is said about the wicked:


    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    King James Version (KJV)

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



    In the Prophecy of Revelation...only Tribulation Martyrs are mentioned as being resurrected...


    Revelation 20

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



    And only those who died during the Tribulation, which does not correlate to Paul's teaching that the Church is resurrected as a whole, both dead as well as living saints.

    So the article refutes what is very clearly stated in Scripture...the Church and the wicked are not resurrected at the same time.


    Continued...
     
  6. Darrell C

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    The proof-text:

    1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.



    And again the proof-text does not support what the article is trying to teach, that there is no Millennial Kingdom.

    And this is why it is important to account for all Prophecy, and to properly place all Prophecy in it's context.

    This has a reference to the Tribulation and Return of Christ...not the passing away of the world and the creation of new heavens and earth.

    One thousand years separate the events described in Revelation 19 and 20, and no amount of commentary is going to change what is very clearly stated.

    We can see some obvious errors in the article so far, and when I get the time I will address the remainder of the OP.


    God bless.
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    No conversation from me. By the time I reached the end of your second post I had lost the will to live.
    If you really want to stimulate discussion, please try to keep your posts short.
     
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  8. Darrell C

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    The posts are not necessarily for those slothful in their efforts on forums, they are for those who are actually interested in discussing the issues.

    Your neglect is not representative of all Students of Scripture, and your conviction is not representative of all believers.

    The only people that my longer posts will benefit are those who are actually interested in seeing the presentations and defenses of the differing views.

    If you want to dictate to others how they should or should not post perhaps you should apply for a Moderator position, Then perhaps your efforts to quench discussion and obscure the focus of the debate might actually be productive.

    There is a time for short posts in a discussion, but usually it is necessary to put a little effort into issues like these. The Body of Christ stands divided on these issues, and it is just my belief that discussion and actually examining the issues with a little more effort can actually bring the Body together.

    Conversely, those who demand their views be accepted without proper study and have to resort to sarcasm and belittling of another's posts based on anything other than the Scripture and the points made...will never achieve anything.

    Except maybe a nice little club that can adversely affect what is supposed to be a Christian Community.


    God bless.
     
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    MM....
    How did you see this part;


      1. Baptized Jewish converts to Christianity left the Old Testament ritual, the priesthood, the temple, the carnal hopes of fleshly Israel, and the love of Jerusalem to follow Jesus Christ and His apostles and avoid the terrible persecution of their own countrymen (Acts 8:1; I Thess 2:14; Heb 10:32-34).
      2. Paul did not comfort these Jewish converts with a future millennial kingdom centered in Jerusalem, with them as the master race, and with animals being offered again before a manmade temple! In fact, he would have abhorred any such notion as heresy (Gal 3:28-29; 4:21-31; Heb 4:1-11; 9:11).
      3. He told them that their conversion brought them into union with the true Mount Sion, the real city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the angelic host of heaven, the universal church of the elect, the book of Life, the great God, the spirits of all the saints, and to Jesus and full redemption from sin!
      4. There is no millennial kingdom even possible on earth that could come close to this glorious description, and any talk of such a competing kingdom is heresy and blasphemy, and it is merely rehashing ancient Jewish fables (Luke 17:20-21; John 4:20-24; 18:36; Eph 2:11-22; 3:1-13)!
      5. God's promise to shake the heaven and earth was given through Haggai to comfort Zerubbabel and the Jews in rebuilding the temple, when God promised to send the Desire of all Nations to that temple and make peace by His cross, Who did just that 2000 years ago (Hag 2:6-9; Mark 15:38)!
      6. This final religious shaking would dislodge and get rid of the weak and beggarly elements of the Old Testament and leave the permanent form of worship of the New Testament, where Jews and Gentiles would form one body (Matt 21:40-46; Luke 16:16; Gal 4:9; Col 3:11; Heb 9:10).
      7. What was left after this shaking? A kingdom that could not be moved – the final kingdom that saved Jews would desire, enjoy, and use to the glory of the great God! There is no other kingdom coming after the gospel kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. The premillennial kingdom is a lie!
      on point#4...I do not think it is heresy or blasphemy as he states....he went over the top there!
     
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  10. Iconoclast

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    1. Is understanding the millennium important?
    2. Yes, it is important because it is in the Bible, though we do categorize it by its prophetic context.
    3. Yes, it is important because it is in the Revelation, which promises a blessing to readers (Rev 1:3).
    4. Yes, it is important for a number of reasons that the unlearned might not readily recognize.
      1. It deals with the methodology of understanding the Bible – strict literalism or spiritual wisdom.
      2. It deals with the issue of the kingdom of God, which drastically affects Bible understanding.
      3. It deals with modern Israel, the Palestinian conflict, and determines your position on Zionism.
      4. It deals with the importance or unimportance of Christ, the gospel, the Gentiles, and the gospel.
      5. It is involved with corruptions of many other prophecies and an ignorant approach to the Bible.
    5. What effect will correct understanding have?
      1. Correct understanding will exalt the Lord Jesus Christ to the throne of God and of David to you.
      2. Rather than distraction or speculation about the future, our lives should be focused on the present.
      3. Rather than see Gentiles as second-class citizens and the church a parenthesis, we have a kingdom!
    6. these are healthy discussion pointsThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup
     
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  11. Darrell C

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    I appreciate that, Iconoclast, really.

    But could you tell me what is "over the top" in regards to the Rapture only involving the Church?

    Or why it is necessary to distinguish bettwen Millennial passages and Tribulation passages would be "over the top?"

    And have to get going, time is about up. I'll check back later for a response.


    God bless.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    He does not read into the passages what you do.
    1thess 4 answers one question...what happens to believers who died? it was not asking about anything else.
    the answer is they are caught up and are not destined for wrath because they are still believers...look slowly and carefully DC-

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    the one question is answered.
     
  13. Darrell C

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    1 Thessalonians 4 does indeed address the concerns of the audience, and Paul comforts them. In your quote we see Paul comforting them in regards to those who have died, and here...


    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    King James Version (KJV)

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



    ...in view is resurrection of both the dead in Christ and those who still remain alive physically.

    So I would agree that in view is the concern for those who died, but this does not refer to what happened to them when they died, or when believers die in general, but it is prophecy concerning what will happen, and thus is the audience comforted.

    The dead are raised first, then those alive are caught up.

    The quote you provide from 1 Thessalonians 5 refers to the Tribulation, the Day of the Lord. Here is a more complete quote to see this:


    1 Thessalonians 5

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.



    The comfort Paul lends to his audience makes it clear they were worried about the fate of those who had died. What comforts is his teaching in ch.4, where we need not worry whether dead or alive, we will live with Him.

    The wrath in view, while having an application to eternal wrath, has a context inextricably linked to the Tribulation, the Day of the Lord. We are told that day will not come on us as a thief in the night, and that sudden destruction will come upon them, destruction which they shall not escape.

    So on the one hand we have unbelievers who will not escape that destruction, and on the other hand we have Paul comforting those he writes to, who he contrasts with those who will be destroyed, telling them/us...we have not been appointed to wrath.

    The wrath then would be the wrath of the Day of the Lord.

    We know there will be believers who die in the Tribulation, thus for them they do not escape the Day of the Lord, thus do not escape that wrath which falls, both from God, but from the Antichrist as well.

    And this is probably my last post here (in this thread, I am going to address a few more before I go), for a while, Iconoclast, it is time for me to move on again. Perhaps we will get the chance to discuss this issue at some later date.


    God bless.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Darrell,
    I apologize for my rather testy post. It was quite unnecessary.
    However, Discussion Forums are way down my list of priorities. I have a sermon to get out for Sunday and a load of other stuff to do, and I just don't have time to wade through great long posts.
    Perhaps I am the only one on this board who feels this way, in which case I will be the only person who doesn't respond.

    Iconoclast,
    I'll try to get back to you later.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    It's okay, Martin, I don't really get offended by the responses that come forth, lol. I would be a basket case if I did.

    I understand that we are dealing with pretty volatile matters when it comes to our individual faiths, so it is expected that sometimes we can get a little "testy," so no harm no foul.

    Understandable, and I pray God speaks through you Sunday, and that your congregation is edified.


    I doubt it, lol.

    But, can't say I didn't try. This will be, I think (might depend on a few things), my last day for a while. BB has always been a place where I just dropped in for a bit, then headed back out to other forums. But I have spent a little bit of time here this year, and am again at a point where it's time to move on. So hopefully no hard feelings for having opposing views, and perhaps one day we might be able to discuss these issues together.

    God bless.
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    This may be true in general, but not, it seems in the case of the Jerusalem converts (Acts 21:20). I take it that these people followed the O.T. laws until the prophecy of Luke 20:20-21 came near when they had to choose between staying and perishing in Jereusalem or heeding our Lord's words.
    I agree with this- I think the verses quoted speak for themselves- but I deplore all talk of heresy towards anyone who believes in the personal return of Christ.

    1. Again, I think this is beyond dispute (Heb. 12:22-24). I think that our Dispensationalist friends confuse Jerusalem below with the one above.
    Your source is much too eager to use the 'H' word, but the Bible quotations are right on the money.
    I'm not sure that this shaking refers to the earthquake of Mark 15. Did that shake heaven? The final shaking will come at the return of Christ IMO.
    That there is only one body of Christ is a truth very close to my heart (John 10:16; Eph. 2:11ff), but I can't quite go along with your man's Preterism.
    See above. If this present world really is the New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness reigns, then I am a banana.
     
    #16 Martin Marprelate, Oct 20, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    First of all I want to comment on the remark you made to Darrell on his post (No conversation from me. By the time I reached the end of your second post I had lost the will to live). That had to be the best laugh I've had all dayLaughLaughLaugh... So you're a banana?... Brother Glen
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    "Martin Marprelate,
    yes I agree ...he goes to far, but I enjoyed the issues he raises as discussion points
    many take it as a change of government
    it is alot to study

    John Owen said it was....
    Owen On the 'New Heavens and Earth.'
    (2 Peter iii. 13)

    The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that liveth on the earth; and the apostle tells us (ver. 7) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire; and yet as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle's time, and continue so to this day; when yet it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then, for the clearing of our foundation a little, consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth in these two places.

    ' 1. It is certain that what the apostle intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (vers. 5, 6), which was destroyed ; the same, or some-what of that kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (ver. 7) ; otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle's discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.

    ' 2. It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of person or men living in the world.

    '3. Then we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the world, and the heavens and earth of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose among many that may be produced: Isa. li. 15, 16. The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God was when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And since it is that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that language which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isa. xxxiv. 4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev. vi. 14), which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. xxiv.) He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.

    ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-

    '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judgment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.

    '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28.

    This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them.

    First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.
     

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