The Gospel of grace found in the Book of Job.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jarthur001, Jun 24, 2008.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    LINK

    In the link you will find a column I just wrote on Chapter 33 of Job. I saw the doctrine of grace through the whole chapter. Just wanting feedback on this.

    Did I go to far?

    Am I just forcing something on the text that is not there?


    Thanks for your input.



    In Christ...James
     
  2. Jarthur001

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    ok....well...

    over 20 views and no replies. I guess all agree. :)
     
  3. Cutter

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    I enjoyed your article, Bro. James. God bless you and thanks be unto God, the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, for His amazing grace!
     
  4. webdog

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    I see God's grace through the whole chapter...not the "doctrines of grace" i.e., calvinism.
    This is eisegesis. My pastor says the same thing. Elihu wasn't mentioned initially, either, as being there, so your view is one from silence. There was plenty wrong with what Elihu said.
    Verses 2-4 in chapter 32 Elihu stated God punished Job because of his sins
    Verse 18, his words were out of anger. Rarely are words spoken from wisom out of anger.
    Verse 5 in chapter 33 Elihu exhibits pride and arrogance...then turns around and accuses Job of the very same in chapter 34.
    Verses 7 - 9 in chapter 34 Elihu lapsed into the same arguments as Job's three "friends" withunfounded accusation. Since these three were rebuked by God, it would naturally follow Elihu's false accusations fall under the same.
    Verses 10 - 15 Elihu stated God immediately punishes sin. Job challenged the same notion in his second response to Zophar (ch. 2)
    Verse 30 Elihu stated God prevents the godless from ruling which we ALL know is not true.
    Verses 31 - 32 Elihu (as Job's three friends) believed Job should either admit he sinned or ask God how he had sinned.
    Verses 33 - 37 Elihu, like Eliphaz, falsely charged Job with rejecting God, lacking wisdom, deserving the "maximum penalty" for his wickedness, and also added rebellion to his "sins".
    Verses 1 - 8 in chapter 35 Elihu challenged Job's claim that he was righteous and then pointed out that commiting sin only affects "people like yourself".
    Verses 12 - 14 Elihu added another "sin" of Job by claiming God doesn't answer people because of their "pride".
    Verses 2 - 4 in chapter 36 Elihu's arrogance is again revealed. No wonder Job didn't answer him.
    Verses 18 - 19 Elihu warns Job not to let his wealth become a problem. Apparently he forgot Job lost his wealth.
    Verse 22 Elihu again falsely accuses Job of commiting evil, and God's just punishment for this "evil".


    Plenty wrong with Elihu's speech. I would edit your article.
     
    #4 webdog, Jun 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2008
  5. JFox1

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    I have a study Bible from a different faith tradition, The Orthodox Study Bible, and it agrees with much of what you said about Elihu: 32:1-12 Elihu, puffed up with arrogance, represents those who profess truth with their lips, but despise truth in the heart. St. Gregory says arrogance is manifested in four ways: (a) when the proud think they possess any goodness of themselves (b) whey they believe they can earn God's blessings by their own merit (c) when they boast of possessing something they do not have; and (d) when, despising others, they wish to be the sole possessors of what they have.

    33:31-33 Elihu has uttered great and powerful things, yet immediately follows up with pride and foolishness. He is like those who "preach Christ even from envy and strife...not sincerely, supposing to add affliction" to the suffering of another (Php 1:14-17).

    34:1-3 Elihu, sad to say, did not preach in order to make men wise, but to display his own superior wisdom.

    34:5-8 Job did not say this. Elihu added to and twisted Job's words to strengthen his own argument.

    34:37 Elihu accused Job of having deserved his scourges, and of having sinned after the scourges. But the Lord judged otherwise, asserting that he was scourged withouth reason (2:3), and blessing him doubly afterwards (Gregory the Great).
     
  6. Jarthur001

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    Thanks for your reply.

    I would have to disagree, but I will tell you that there are 100s of view on chapter 33. I have looked and studied them and they range from one extreme of Freedman identifying Elihu as an incarnation of Satan “to press his case for the last time.”....to Habel who is convinced that Elihu saw himself as Job’s mediator and ......Driver and Gray says he not only thinks he is the mediator, but Elihu IS the mediator. This last I feel goes to far.

    However I am at peace with my views and I can and will address your points in time showing where you and your pastor are wrong.

    For now I will listen to what others may say.

    Thanks again
     
  7. webdog

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    No problem. My pastor agrees with you, btw. I think Scripture is quite clear in Elihu's errors and false accusations.
     
  8. webdog

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    Bump...good thread that didn't go too far, and since I just finished reading this part of Job, wanted to resurrect it. Still wating on how my rendering of Elihu is wrong, and how he is a picture of Christ (which makes no sense in light of the errors Elihu stated). No errors ever left Christ's lips, but plenty left Elihu, so many in fact, Job just brushed him off and didn't even bother responding.
     
  9. Gup20

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    Verses 2-4 chapter 32: Elihu doesn't state God is punishing Job because of his sins, but rather he is angry with Job for trying to justify his own innocence rather than justifying God's allowing him to suffer.

    Verse 18: The Bible doesn't say that love is never angry, but rather that it is slow to become angry. God himself was wrathful with Israel on many occasions. C.S. Lewis once wrote that Anger is an expression of love, whereas indifference is the ultimate expression of hate.

    I could go on, but I think it sufficient to say that I believe that much of what Elihu said was right. I would NOT go so far as to say his was the 'voice of Christ', however.

    The fact of the matter was, regardless of Job's upright and blameless life, he was born a sinner and deserving of anything and everything that happened to him. Sure, Job understood faith and how God judges the heart of men... sacrificing even for sin in his heart ... but he had no reason for hope - no knowledge of Christ. He was just as lost as any other sinner.

    Job lived in Satan's domain (earth) - a fallen place where Satan had every right to do anything he wished to do to men.

    I think it was a good column. Indeed for us to understand the "good news" we must first believe the "bad news". The bad news for Job was that he was a sinner, destined for death, without hope of salvation. We, on the other hand, have a reason to hope.

    Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
     
  10. webdog

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    And why is that? Because Elihu deemed it as just punishment for the sins he committed that I touched on (which it was not)
    2 Then Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the clan of Ram, became angry. He was angry because Job refused to admit that he had sinned and that God was right in punishing him. 3 He was also angry with Job’s three friends, for they made God[a] appear to be wrong by their inability to answer Job’s arguments. 4 Elihu had waited for the others to speak to Job because they were older than he.

    The Bible also says be angry and sin not. Words spoken from anger fall into this category.
    I agree to an extent, particularly when speaking of God's sovereignty, but not about Job's condition, and his immaturity.
    This presupposes Augustinian original sin to be fact, when I believe it is not supported by Scripture, but a theological system. I do not believe he was perfect, though...just not born a sinner :)
     
    #10 webdog, Dec 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2008
  11. Gup20

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    Lets look at the King James Version:

    Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

    Every other translation but the NLT says "because he justified himself rather than God". The NLT is the ONLY translation that says "because Job refused to admit that he had sinned and that God was right for punishing him".

    The verse (except for the NLT translation it seems) is trying to convey that Elihu was angry that Job was trying to justify himself to God, rather than justifying God to himself.

    Job was asserting that his judgement was superior to God's judgement. He was putting himself in a position of higher authority than God.

    Words spoken from anger are not sinful. The Bible is telling us not to let ourselves lose control when angry and sin in some way... but being angry and speaking while angry are not sins. That would mean that anything God said out of wrath was sinful.

    I disagree with your disagreement :laugh:

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
     
  12. billwald

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    It would make a good sermon but a polemical text.

    Job is maybe my favorite book; the oldest Bible text and maybe the most honest. What could be more honest and instructive about God than Job 2:3-6?


    3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

    4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

    6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

    In other words, this universe is a contest, a game.

    Recently heard the conclusion that the "moral" of Job is that, although we live in a chaotic universe, God can still be trusted.

    Two things that have always amused me about Job is, first, that God replaced everything but Job's old yenta of a wife and second, after reading and listening to Christian material for 60 years, no one has ever had the guts to give an analysis of God's treatment of Job's first set of kids.
     
  13. webdog

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    I knew the NLT was the only one with that rendering, and I think in context of the coming arguments from Elihu, is pretty accurate.
    True, but Elihu's words from anger led to arrogance and false accusations, which is sin.
    I kinda gathered that :D
    I like your text, but I don't think it is a proof text for augustinian original sin. "Have sinned" is past tense, btw, meaning sin is not imputed where there is no law making "we sin because we are sinners (which by definition is one who sins)" quite lacking. A conceived child knows no law, and has no sin imputed to them, meaning they are not guilty, i.e., not spiritually separated from God. Paul actually refutes "AOS" a couple chapters later when he stated "sin sprang to life, and I died". He was not born spiritually dead. Dead means literally the ending or ceasing of life, so to be created "dead" is an oxymoron, as there had to have been life to end in the first place. Enough on this, though, as we are huntin' them wabbits at this point.
     
    #13 webdog, Dec 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2008
  14. Gup20

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    I think the entirety of the Old Testament is to show that the first covenant (the Law) could save no one, and that salvation was going to be by faith. Abraham was justified by faith.

    Job seemed to understand this. The first chapter says Job made sacrifices for his children just in case they had sinned in their hearts. Job understood sin was a heart issue.

    Job also lived in a world where death reigned - Satan, whom the Bible calls the God of this world, was in charge. All who lived in this prison (the earth) were convicts. Why was there death in the world? Because of sin. Why did Job's children die? Because of sin. Romans 5:12
     
  15. Gup20

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    I think the rendering of that forms the foundation from which all the other comments are understood in that context. You have to be certain of that to understand his meaning for the rest.

    Your entire interpretation of "arrogance and false accusations" are because of your incorrect premise regarding 32:2-4. Properly understood, you can see that Job supports Romans 5:

    Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

    Not really sure what Agustinian Original Sin is.... but it seems clear from Romans 5 that the death that resulted from Adam's sin was passed on biologically to all men - even to ALL OF CREATION!


    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Otherwise, why would Jesus need to be born of a virgin?
     
  16. webdog

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    Physical death was part of the curse passed on to all men...even Christ died physically being 100% God and 100% man, but spiritual death comes about the same way it did with Adam, by knowing and breaking God's law.
     
  17. Gup20

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    Is that Augustinian Original Sin? I'm not hip to such things... I prefer to study the Bible.

    But I would agree with you - all are born into death, and all are sinners because they have sinned. But I would go further and say that all men (and women) who have ever lived deserve death if they have sinned even once.

    But I would give this litmus test to determine if one is a sinner: Does the individual know the difference between good and evil? For it wasn't until Adam and Eve sinned that their eyes were opened to this.
     
  18. webdog

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    :laugh: That's pretty much it in a nut-shell...man is conceived a sinner, hence separated from God at conception. This was the reason infant baptism was started.

    I'll even go one step farther...all men are deserving of physical death due to being born into a fallen world, and having a sin nature (except Christ, of course). Without ever shedding the sin nature, there would be no living in God's presence.
     
  19. billwald

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    >Job also lived in a world where death reigned - Satan, whom the Bible calls the God of this world, was in charge.

    "Sin" seems to be doing OK in the last several years. <G>
     
  20. Gup20

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    I would agree with that.
     

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