The Gospel Saves, if...

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Eladar, Jan 29, 2002.

  1. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    Correct me 'if' I'm wrong, but isn't Paul saying that the Gospel message will only save a person, 'if' one keeps it in mind?

    If this is so, then 'if' someone later in life 'forgets' the gospel, then that person, as Paul says, believed (the Gospel message) in vain.
     
  2. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Note that the gospel was something by which they stood. The word for stand there is in the perfect tense. They are standing in it in the past, standing in it in the present, and standing in it in the future. Therefore, they could not lose their salvation.

    Let me quote John Gill's remarks on 1 Cor 15:2 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ver. 2. By which also ye are saved, &c.] It was the means of their salvation, and had been made the power of God unto salvation to them. Salvation is inseparably connected with true faith in Christ as a Saviour, and with a hearty belief of his resurrection from the dead, which is the earnest and pledge of the resurrection of the saints; and because of the certainty of it in the promise of God, through the obedience and death of Christ, and in the faith and hope of believers, which are sure and certain things, they are said to be saved already. To which the apostle puts in the following provisos and exceptions; the one is,

    if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you; or rather, "if ye hold fast, or retain"; that is, by faith, the doctrine preached to you, and received by you, particularly the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead; for the salvation that is connected with it does not depend upon the strength of the memory, but upon the truth and steadfastness of faith: it is the man that perseveres in the faith and doctrine of Christ that shall be saved; and everyone that has truly believed in Christ, and cordially embraced his Gospel, shall hold on, and out to the end; though the faith of nominal believers may be overthrown by such men, as Hymenaeus and Philetus, who asserted, that the resurrection was past already; but so shall not the faith of real believers, because the foundation on which they are built stands sure, and the Lord has perfect knowledge of them, and will keep and save them. The other exception is,

    unless ye have believed in vain: not that true faith can be in vain; for that is the faith of God's elect, the gift of his grace, the operation of his Spirit; Christ is the author and finisher of it, and will never suffer it to fail; it will certainly issue in everlasting salvation: but then as the word may be heard in vain, as it is by such who are compared to the wayside, and to the thorny and rocky ground; and as the Gospel of the grace of God may be received in vain; so a mere historical faith may be in vain; this a man may have, and not the grace of God, and so be nothing; with this he may believe for a while, and then drop it: and since each of these might possibly be the case of some in this church, the apostle puts in these exceptions, in order to awaken the attention of them all to this important doctrine he was reminding them of. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  3. Kellisa

    Kellisa
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Correct me 'if' I'm wrong, but isn't Paul saying that the Gospel message will only save a person, 'if' one keeps it in mind?

    If this is so, then 'if' someone later in life 'forgets' the gospel, then that person, as Paul says, believed (the Gospel message) in vain."

    Those who believed in vain never were saved to begin with. We cannot lose our salvation. It is not something we keep.

    Philippians 1:6 “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”

    1 Peter 1:5 “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
     
  4. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tom,

    There are two types of believers, those that will stay the course and those that will fall. There is no way to know for sure which type we are until we die. Therefore, even though the Calvinistic view of predestination is true, the Arminean view of the possibility of a believer falling away is also true. :eek:

    It has nothing to do with a contradiction, it has to do with man's imperfect perception of reality.

    Kellisa,

    Your interpretation of Philippians 1:6 has the some problem I've mentioned before, man's imperfect perception. We can't tell if a good work has begun in us.

    1 Peter 1:5 is talking about the elect, once again, same problem. We don't know that we are apart of the elect, only God has this information. There are those who believe in vain, but this verse isn't talking about that group of believers.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
    There are two types of believers, those that will stay the course and those that will fall. ... Your interpretation of Philippians 1:6 has the some problem I've mentioned before, man's imperfect perception. We can't tell if a good work has begun in us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This doesn't work. There are not two types of believers; there are two types of people--those in whom God has begun a good work and those in whom he has not. If the good work has begun, then it will be completed. If it has not, it will not be.

    You are right that we do not infallibly know in whom that good work has begun. However, that is why the warnings are there. They encourage perserverance as an indication that "we have become partakers of Christ."
     
  6. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There are not two types of believers; there are two types of people--those in whom God has begun a good work and those in whom he has not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There appears to be a contradiction between your belief and Paul's.

    1 Corinthians 15:2
    By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    I hope you don't mind if I choose to believe Paul's understanding rather than your's.
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    The gospel saves if you keep in memory. I got another scripture for you:

    Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    Why was Paul upset with the Galatian brethren because they had left the doctrine of grace that he set up. They had forgotten that they were bought with a price and could never lose it. They went back under the law of bondage that the blood of Jesus Christ satisfied.

    They had let the memory of those doctines that was evidently set before them slip away. Just like the Galatian brethren we can also get in that condition when we let those things slip and look to a works doctrine to get us to heaven. It's ALL OF GOD for my Eternal Salvation... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  8. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tuor,
    I think you and I agree a little, although we disagree. Man's perception is the key to understanding this verse, and many others regarding the Calvinism/Armenianism debate

    I do believe that all true believers are once saved always saved, but I believe that too many times we cannot see who is a person of true faith, and who is believing in vain.

    Therin lies the confusion, in our perception of the situation. Not in any way do we have the ability to reject the calling wherewith we are called, but we can put on an outward show of faith, without true regeneration. IT may look like a believer falling away, but in reality, they never believed to begin with.
     
  9. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    superdave,

    Not in any way do we have the ability to reject the calling wherewith we are called, but we can put on an outward show of faith, without true regeneration. IT may look like a believer falling away, but in reality, they never believed to begin with.

    The problem isn't one of being called or not. The problem is if you believe someone can believe the Gospel if that person wasn't called. Evidently there are those who believe the Gospel, yet were not apart of the elect.

    Perhaps God calls some to believe for a short period of time.

    Paul does say, 'believe in vain'. To say that these people didn't actually believe is to say that Paul is wrong.
     
  10. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:

    There are two types of believers, those that will stay the course and those that will fall. There is no way to know for sure which type we are until we die. Therefore, even though the Calvinistic view of predestination is true, the Arminean view of the possibility of a believer falling away is also true. :eek:
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The first sentence is correct; there are two types of believers. The second is incorrect; a true believer will know he is a true believer.

    There are those who believe superficially; it is a man-centered, selfish belief, rooted in self-seekedness and not in saving faith. It is belief which "did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil. And when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away." Mark 4:5-6 (ESV)

    It is the type of belief that wants something temporal from the Son of Man.

    John 6:65-67 (ESV)
    And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
    [66] After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. [67] So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"

    In John 8 it says:

    John 8:28-33 (ESV)
    So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. [29] And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." [30] As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
    [31] So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, [32] and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." [33] They answered him, "We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, 'You will become free'?"

    They believed in Christ, but it was not God-given saving faith, as can be seen in the remainder of John 8. These same Jews who had believed in him "picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple." John 8:59

    These were obviously temporary believers, neither elect of the Father nor regenerated. But those with true, saving faith are held to the end by God, those who can know that their election is sure and to whom John later wrote "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13 (ESV)
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did not realize I had to be so specific. Sorry.

    When I use the term "believer," I am referring to a true believer that Paul describes as "saved," not a false one. Obviously (I thought) someone who believed in vain is not a true believer; they have an empty belief, much like that of the demons (James 2:18). It is not a matter of choosing between Paul and I. Paul says you are saved (a true believer) unless your belief was in vain, or not true.

    So the point remains, there is only one kind of believer, one in whom a good work has begun; all others are not true believers.

    To Chris,

    I am not convinced that a true believer will always know that he is a true believer. A true believer can doubt, and probably will at some point in his life. That is why Scripture gives us tests of true faith. I do think that as a general rule of life, a true believer can have confidence. On the other side, I think many who are not true believers are completely convinced that they are.

    [ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  12. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    I am not convinced that a true believer will always know that he is a true believer. A true believer can doubt, and probably will at some point in his life. That is why Scripture gives us tests of true faith. I do think that as a general rule of life, a true believer can have confidence. On the other side, I think many who are not true believers are completely convinced that they are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes, I would agree with that. I stand corrected.
     
  13. tnelson

    tnelson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2002
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bro. Larry,

    IN Matt.22:11, And when the king came in to see the quests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: Would this be a person that fooled everybody in the church but did not fool God. The reason I say this is because only the king saw him.

    Thank you for help t. nelson
     
  14. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Obviously (I thought) someone who believed in vain is not a true believer; they have an empty belief, much like that of the demons (James 2:18). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a very big difference between what demons believe and what the vain believer believes.

    Demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they don't believe the gospel. The believers that Paul says believe in vain, are ones that at one point believe in the gospel, but then at some point forget it.

    These believers' beliefs are not like the demon's beliefs at all(other than the fact that their final beliefs land them in the same location).

    Look at verse 2 says about the gospel:


    By which also ye are saved, if

    If what???

    if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you

    What happens if you don't keep in memory the gospel that Paul taught and you origianlly believed???

    ye have believed in vain.

    Verse 2 speaks for itself.

    [ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
    There is a very big difference between what demons believe and what the vain believer believes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No not really. The demons believe the gospel. In fact, they know that if the gospel is not true, then they have nothing to worry about. They are more convinced of the gospel than anyone because they have been directly affected by it. They believe the facts; they simply have not committed themselves to it.
     
  16. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    What ever they believed originally, Paul said that if they continue to believe it, they would be saved.

    I don't believe this would put them in the same classification with demons.

    [ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  17. Kellisa

    Kellisa
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tyndale1946:
    The gospel saves if you keep in memory. I got another scripture for you:

    Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    Why was Paul upset with the Galatian brethren because they had left the doctrine of grace that he set up. They had forgotten that they were bought with a price and could never lose it. They went back under the law of bondage that the blood of Jesus Christ satisfied.

    They had let the memory of those doctines that was evidently set before them slip away. Just like the Galatian brethren we can also get in that condition when we let those things slip and look to a works doctrine to get us to heaven. It's ALL OF GOD for my Eternal Salvation... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Great post. I was just talking to my husband about these verses the other day. Now that was some great preaching. Why don't people realize our flesh and minds will never be in accord with our soul. Our soul is what Jesus saves, not our flesh and mind they war against it. Only our soul is made perfect.
     
  18. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ignoring one scripture and bringing up another...

    How about talking about 1 Corinthinas 15:1-2?

    You can't close your eyes to this scripture because it doesn't fit the understanding you have of other scripture.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
    Ignoring one scripture and bringing up another...

    How about talking about 1 Corinthinas 15:1-2?

    You can't close your eyes to this scripture because it doesn't fit the understanding you have of other scripture.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't think anyone here has closed their eyes to this Scripture. We were under the opinion that you wanted to discuss it and that is what we have done. Remember, this Scripture does not exist in isolation from the rest of Scripture. It must be interpreted along with it all, in accordance with it all. You asked essentially, What does it mean to believe in vain? and that is what we have tried to give some input on.
     
  20. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    You define believing in vain as not believing in the wrong thing.

    This is not what 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 is saying at all. Why wouldn't Paul have said something like:

    'If you believe the incorrect things, you believe in vain'?

    In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, Paul only says that the vain believer forgets.

    How can you forget something that you never knew?

    [ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     

Share This Page

Loading...