The grace and mercy of God's unconditional election

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Herald, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. Herald

    Herald
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    I have to be honest, Pastor_Bob's calling parts of Calvinism "damnable heresies" set me off the wrong way. I was angered at his throwing out a term that describes those believing those doctrines as Paul described the false teachers of Galatians:

    Galatians 1:8, 9 But even if we, or an angel in heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed!

    Are we to conclude that Calvinists are consigned to hell?

    Perhaps that was not Bob's intent. I have misspoken before and I have appreciated the opportunity others have given me to correct my intemperate remarks. It certainly is humbling to say "I was wrong" and ask for forgiveness. Quantum suggested that Bob got caught up in the emotion. Possibly. Squire Robertson rightly ended a previous thread by saying he would not allow mutual anathematizing. I agree with that. I am not saying anyone is accursed. My concern is that, if left unchallenged, a term such as "damnable heresy" will be believed.

    The fact is that Calvinists view unconditional election as an act of God's grace and mercy. What merit can a wretched, miserable sinner bring before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Those who hate the Savior are pictured as entering caves and saying to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb (Rev. 6:15, 16)." Even in face of impending judgment they hate the Lamb. Paul describes those who hate the Lamb as "sons of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). He said that he was once like that himself (Eph. 2:3). But then he appealed to the mercy and love of God (Eph. 2:4). "even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). There is no condition upon which God lavished His mercy and grace upon sinners. God's mercy and saving grace is dispensed unconditionally. God's dispenses both as He sees fit. In this way no one can say, "God chose me because of thus." How is this a damnable heresy?

    The Calvinist believes the Gospel is to be proclaimed to all. The Calvinist believes that all those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Yes. The Calvinist believes only those who have been appointed unto eternal life will believe (Acts 13:48). But the sum total of those who have been appointed is known only by God. Our duty is to proclaim the Gospel and call on all who listen to repent and believe. How is this a damnable heresy?

    I am not prepared to call those who I disagree with on this board damnable heretics. I leave the damnable designation up to God.
     
    #1 Herald, Sep 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2013
  2. Winman

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    Well, I have openly said that I do not believe Calvinism preaches the same gospel Paul taught.

    1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    Look at verse 1 carefully, Paul says he is declaring the gospel "which I preached unto you". So Paul is RECALLING exactly what he had first preached to these Corinthians.

    Now, when Paul first preached the gospel to these Corinthians, he had no idea whatsoever who was elect and who was not, who would believe and who would not. No preacher can know that.

    But note very carefully what he told them in verse 3, he said he delivered to them first of all that which he also received, how that Christ died for "OUR" sins.

    Paul told every single person he preached to that Jesus died for their sins personally. Now, this has nothing to do with Unconditional Election, but it certainly refutes Limited Atonement which is also one of the 5 points of Calvinism.

    So, I do not believe Calvinists preach the same gospel. No honest Calvinist who believes in Limited Atonement can tell any person Jesus died for him, because he doesn't know that. In fact, truth be told, no honest Calvinist knows if Jesus died for him personally. How can you have faith in a "MAYBE?"?

    I have watched several Calvinist street preachers on YouTube, and they avoid telling anyone Jesus died for them. They always say things like, "Jesus died for his people". This is very easy to notice.

    Now this video was supposed to be a joke, but it does point out how Calvinists preach in other people's eyes;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU

    Now, I do not judge who is saved and who is not, not my job. I believe Jesus warned against making judgments like this. But I absolutely believe that Calvinism is not preaching the same gospel that Paul preached.
     
    #2 Winman, Sep 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2013
  3. preacher4truth

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  4. Winman

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    What are you asking people to believe? That Jesus MIGHT have died for their sins?

    How can you believe on a "maybe"? How can you rely on a "perhaps"?

    You could "listen" to this kind of gospel all day long, it is not going to give you one bit of assurance that Jesus died for you.

    Calvinism does not understand what believing on Jesus means, it means to completely rest upon and depend upon Jesus's promise to personally save YOU. And the only way you can depend or rely upon this is to KNOW for a certainty that Jesus died for YOUR sins.

    You guys just don't get it.
     
  5. Rippon

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    If the Gospel that I as a Calvinist proclaim is not the true Gospel then I am not saved and neither are multiplied millions of professing Christians throughout Church History. And that would be utter nonsense that you are spouting.

    True enough. But that doesn't support your gross error earlier.

    No he did not.

    Hardly any Calvinist refers to particular redemption as "limited atonement".

    Again, you have a very truncated view of Calvinism -- it is nuch broader than the errors that the Fathers of Dort were responding to in their Canons.

    There you go again Jimmy. You are condemning Calvinists to eternal perdition. I do not think you are allowed to say such things about fellow believers in our Lord.

    True enough. Some of the greatest Calvinistic soul winners such as Whitefield and Spurgeon would never give someone the confidence that they knew Christ had died for each person in their hearing.
    This honest Calvinist will certainly tell you that I KNOW Christ died for me. We have been over this time and time again. You will not accept the truth so you call Calvinists liars they they have the personal conviction that Christ laid down His life for their sins -- personally.
    No Calvinist does. However believers in a provisional atonement -- like you believe in a maybe because you would deny that Christ died for any particular person.

    Of course you are doing that which you say you have no right to do. If Calvinists believe in a false Gospel then they certainly are not saved. You claim we believe in a false Gospel -- hence we are unsaved in your pathetic view.
    You can't win -- man!
     
  6. Winman

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    No, it would mean millions were preaching a false gospel.

    It would help to tell me what that supposed gross error was. I am not a mind reader.

    Oh, but he did. In verse 1 he says "I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;"
    And then in verse 3 he declares that this gospel is "first of all, how that Christ died for OUR sins".

    Paul is recalling what he preached. He had originally told these Corinthians that Jesus died for their sins. Now, that is something anyone can depend and rely upon.

    A rose by any other name...

    Oh, I think I understand Calvinism quite well.

    My name is not Jimmy, and I do not condemn anyone, that is God's job.

    Then they did not preach the same gospel as Paul. The fact that many Calvinists have written books and are famous in church history does not necessarily prove they were correct in what they taught.

    If you believe in Limited Atonement, then it is absolutely impossible to know for a certainty that Jesus died for you. You must think people are stupid.

    I believe Jesus died for 100% of people, but you must received the Atonement as a gift by faith.

    I could buy you a gift at Christmas, and the next day you can take it back to the store. A person can refuse to receive Christ's payment for sin in their stead.

    Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    See, you can neglect your salvation.

    I am simply saying that if you preach that Jesus only died for some people, then you are not preaching what Paul and the other apostles preached.

    I am not trying to win, my username is taken from my real name.
     
    #6 Winman, Sep 29, 2013
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