The Great Emancipator Said These ?

So all Rebel soldiers were immoral? Even the 90% of them who were not slaveholders? In the end, the CSA government decided that it wanted independence more than it wanted to keep the institution of slavery. They began offering freedom to any slaves who enlisted in the army, though it was a move that came too late to change the outcome.

Strictly speaking, the CSA did not want a war with the US. They wanted to go their own way and it was the decision of the US to fight a war to prevent that.

Well go ahead and make the case. You are more willing to justify the NAZI symbol, a regime that tried their best to exterminate an entire race of people, than you are to allow the descendants of Rebel soldiers any pride in their own symbols.

 

I think sometimes decent people get caught up in an immoral cause. I dont believe every German foot soldier was an immoral person in their personal life. But certenly the cause they were fighting for is immoral.

Well, how nice of them. If you will fight for us, so we can keep your family, friends, and others with the same color skin as you in slavery. We will let you go. What good people they were.

Who fired the first shot. Fort Sumter?

There should be no more pride in the reb flag then the Germans have in the Nazi flag. They both stood for immoral causes. The Nazis wanted to exterminate a whole race. The Conf. gov wanted to enslave a whole race. Both were racist and did not treat a whole race of people as humans.

BUT, the swastika has roots that have nothing to do with racisem. The Reb flag, has its begining in racisem.

To me there is not alot of difference between the civil war era south and nazi germany.

 

The Nazi bucket of guilt doesn't hold a single drop of Confederate water!

There are many significant and important differences between the Confederates and the Nazis: Confederates were and are just as much Americans as the Yankees were and are whereas the Nazis were certainly not. The immorality of slavery was an extant situation for generations and not created by the Confederates whereas the immorality of the attempted extermination of the Jews was the immediate product of the Nazis. The Confederate states just wanted to make their own choices - right or wrong - and resented being told what to do and when to do it by the Yankees who believed they were somehow morally superior whereas the Nazis were engaged in a systematic plan to conquer the world and destroy anyone who got in their way or didn't fit their ideals.

The entire nation - North and South - was involved in slavery at some time in our past. It wasn't right but it was real. It was not even illegal by the Constitution until after the end of the civil war. To claim the South was immoral and the North was not is an insult by half of the nation to the other. Many of us who are from the South understand that very well. We're not going to be humiliated into shame for the mistakes and short comings of our nation that existed at the time and have since been corrected. We don't believe slavery was right but we do understand that it was a reality of the times - not invented by the South - and practiced for a long time prior. We also believe we did have the right to decide our own issues in our own time. The abundant immorality of the North was surely proved during the long harsh years of reconstruction.

Those who are so quick to point the finger of blame at the South need to examine their own past for the evidence of slave trade and other abuses of fellow man in their own history. The North was and is no more moral or righteous than the South and neither is one race than the other. If we change the times and the places just about any mass immorality is a real possibility and it's not exclusive to any demographics.

 

It does not really matter what continent the people were living on does it. Immorality is not limited to one country. The Nazis were wrong and so were the confederates.

The Nazis did not invent persecution of the Jews. We have been over this, just because they did not start it, just because they were not the first or only participants, does not excuse it.

Anybody who participated in slavery was wrong, north or south. When the north started to come to its senses and try to stop the problem they had a duty to stop it everywhere they could. Nobody has the right to enslave another human being. If your neighbor was holding a hostage and you could do something about it I would expect you would. You would not say, "well my neighbor did not invent hostages he was not the first one to do it, he just wants the right to decide for himself"

Again, I dont blame the south for what their ancestors did. If my ancestors had slaves then they were wrong. So I am not pointing the finger south. The blame rests with those alive during the time who participated.

 

All of mankind is fallen and fundamentally immoral. So, on that basis, why single out anyone? Why just Nazis or Confederates whom you, but not I, equate with them? Why do you insist to equate the two? Before God all sin is equally worthy of death and separation from Him. Before men do you equate every wrong doing and wrong doer as equally evil? There's no equality between slavery and the systematic murder of six million people notwithstanding the rest of the actions the Nazis took in conquering a large part of Europe.

Who among us is excusing the wrong doing of slavery? Not me! I've written several times that slavery was wrong. I'm also saying it was accepted practice around the world and in this country as well under our own Constitution. I'm saying that the wrong has to be viewed, with respect to men, in the context of the time and place. People were born, lived, and died with slavery being a matter of course. It was an economic fact of large scale agriculture in those days. That didn't make it right but it makes it understandable why it continued so long. I am saying that the Southern states did not want the Northern states telling them what to do and when to do. Those rights were grossly violated and the result was a war - which the South did loose and for which it suffered greatly - and out of which has flourished an ever expanding federal government. What has that great government done to stamp out all the sinful conduct of mankind that the states would not do? In fact, the federal government has often stood in the way of such and worked against it. Notable is the issue of abortion. Should we then, by your logic, revolt against the federal government and send the state militias to Washington to force them to outlaw that terrible sin?

What about those righteous Northern states? What were their true motives? Many people their didn't care one way or the other about the rights of slaves to be free. Many didn't even care if the Southern states wanted to leave the union. Yet some stubborn leaders pushed it along into a war that was very costly and set back the South for generations. I don't believe for a minute it was because of moral superiority in the North. It was about power - about making someone else do what you want verses what they want - and about ravishing the South to set it back in time. The North surely didn't make life better for either the freed slaves or the common people of the South. They punished, abused, and stole for at least fifteen years of reconstruction.

My right to interfere with my neighbor is, indeed, limited. Our right as a nation to interfere with our neighboring nations is also limited. The rights of one state, or group of states, to interfere with another was also limited. Should the Southern states attack the immorality that flourishes in the New England or Western states? That's, in fact, what the war was about - the right of people to decide for their own state. If the South had won we still wouldn't have slavery today because the good people of the South would have brought about its end in a peaceful manner.

[SIZE=+1] Well, chances are 100% that everywhere in our ancestry we will find sinful conduct of many kinds whether slavery or worse. Even the slaves themselves were guilty of sinful conduct. The blame for all sin rests with all of us. We all, as Christians, know that don't we? So then, the flag of our nation must represent also the sins of the nation engaged for generations past by the same logic that the old flag of the Confederacy must represent the great evil you claim existed among its people of that time. Let's just all beat each other up with guilt and shame!

There's nothing wrong with the old Confederate battle flag being displayed as a symbol of respect and pride for our ancestors who fought for what they believed was right. In fact, based on your inspiration, I'm thinking about putting one up whereas I did not before.
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Yes all men are fallen. Why wave the banner of the sin of some. Would you put a free-choice/pro abortion flag on your house. Would you put a ranbow triangle on your car. No because they reprisent groups that stand for sinfull actions. Even though we are all guilty of sin, we avoid being identified with groups that stand for sin.

There is equality between slavery and the hollocost. Even though one seems more destructive. The equality is this, neither valued human life. Both treated certan groups of people as sub-human.

I understand. I have noted where you have said this several times.

But then, you defend slavery and the people who did not want to be told what to do. Even when they were being told they could not do what is wrong.

Not enough in alot of cases. Abortion.

If the goverment came to its senses tomorow and outlawed abortion to protect human life. And California decided to continue and the goverment wanted to send troops to stop it. I would support the feds.

Now it human life was not involved say the feds wanted to enforce a speed limit or gun control then that is a states rights. I would stand with the states.

I am sure alot were not onboard. But the cause was just. I have never called the north righeous. They were on the right side of history on this one.

You have a duty to interfear with your neighbor when another life is in jepordy. You have every right to protect the innocent against oppression. Yes the south would have discontinued the practice of slavery. But when. How many generations later. One is to many.

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The difference. It is our flag, and we are working on making this a better place, or should be. The Conf. flag is from a country that no longer exists. What it reprisents can not be changed. It is what it is. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

I realize that we want to respect our ancestors. However why have respect and pride for a group of people who fought for what is wrong by your own words.

If my ancestors were abortion doctors and activists, I would not put up a pro abortion flag out or respect and pride for what my ancestors fought for.

 

You are free to do just that. But you should think about it.

I became a Christian in my early 20s. A co worker who is from Oklahoma witnessed to me at work. He probaby would take your stance in this argument being from the south.

If when he was telling me about Christ I would have went to his home and seen a Conf flag, I would have never listened to him. His witness would have had no value TO ME.

My point. Even though you make thoughtfull arguments about what the conf flag means to YOU. A large part of people view it my way.

So put up your conf flag. But know that to alot you have put into question your values and judgement.

 

Perhaps now you are elevating yourself?

 

Not true! I do not defend slavery. I do point out that the situation of the times was different than it is today. We can look back upon the practice with great disgust but if we'd lived then we'd most likely view it differently. Slavery had been an accepted practice for generations. We even have evidence of that during Biblical times.

Regardless whether we think some other people are doing wrong, we do not necessarily have a right to intercede and especially by the use of force. There are many restrictions on this both by man's laws and God's laws. Surely we should help others right what is wrong among them but we have to balance such efforts against many other factors. We do not have an automatic right to use force - especially the deadly force of war - for such purposes. Such arrogance in the name of "doing good" can lead to a lot of problems and evils itself. If this is not true then we need to be sending our military to a many more places around the world to correct their problems for their own good. We have to choose such matters very carefully respecting the rights of others and weighing the impact to our own.

Before you get back to your Nazi argument: This does not mean the German people should have stood by and watched the Nazis round up and take away all the Jews. Strike the Confederates equals the Nazis line because it doesn't hold true! No one is every going to make me believe my ancestors who fought in the civil war for the Confederacy were the equivalent of the Nazis! That does nothing but rile me up. You can take that and ... it!

It is interesting to note there were no instructions I know about from the Lord Jesus Christ recorded in the Holy Bible to go free all the slaves and He was certainly aware there were people in such status. It's also clear that justice of the times included the relationship between master and slave. That doesn't mean Jesus approved of human slavery - it would be difficult to believe that He would - but He didn't give you and me instructions to go make the people in the next state give theirs up right now or else. He probably expected us to work against the practice by admonishing those we knew were involved. He probably would expect us to work towards a system of better justice among mankind.

Regardless, the civil was not fought over slavery per se. It was fought over the rights of states to secede from the "perpetual" - not "eternal" - union. Many in the North even agreed with those in the South that they had that right. But arrogant people forced the issue into a war. The North was wrong to use the force of war to impose their will upon the South. The South was right to defend itself against the Northern aggression. It would have been a shame to see the union fragmented but it was just as shameful to see the states loose so much of their autonomy as a result of the war. Had they been willing to be patient with one another the war could have been avoided and the slaves would have been freed in due time.

 

Explain that please?

 

Maybe I should say that you are attempting to mitigate the situation. See below for an example.

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But you admit that it is wrong.

I feel that force was justified in freeing human beings from slave owners.

It is interesting how you draw that line. We should have interfeared with the nazis but not the south. I guess you draw the line at death because the nazis were killing. But we did not know that when we went into ww2. We went because they were taking over countries. Taking others liberty. I draw my line a little further back then you. I think freeing enslaved people is a just cause.

We both agree that Jesus would not approve of enslaving people. That makes the rest of the paragraph pointless. Jesus also did not give instructions to go into Germany. But that was the right thing to do also.

 

This has been a good debate. It seems to be deteriorating a little bit. So I am just going to thank you for considering my opinion. You have make thoughtfull arguments and even though we disagree, I can see where you are coming from.

I am going to bow out before you join the other poster who wishes to lynch me, like his grandpa use to do.

Thanks

 

That's probably a good idea for me as well, DeeJay! I think, considering the subject, we've had a reasonably civil debate and I'm glad of that. I appreciate your points of view. I admit to getting close to my boiling point.

Two of my Great-Great Grandfathers died in the civil war fighting for the Confederacy and at least two more were veterans. I have part of the uniform of one of those who lived through it. One of the first two left a family of thirteen children to his widow to raise in complete poverty. They all had a very difficult time during the reconstruction years and came out of it very resentful of the occupation government and the carpetbaggers.

As for the issue of slaves, one of the first two and one of the second two may have used some slave labor for farm work. Their outright ownership of slaves is not clear for the records found. Some clues are extant but the absolute facts are inconclusive. For that generation, it is seems unlikely since none were wealthy enough at that time and most had only removed to the state five to ten years before the war ensued as relatively young men. For the prior generation, it's more likely among one or two lines who owned larger farms and no doubt needed low cost laborers to work them. The rest of my civil war era ancestors, based on property descriptions and family stores, weren't much farther up the economic ladder than slaves and that trend continued even in more recent generations.

Some aspects of this might trouble some people but I accept it in the context of the times and I don't hide it, magnify it, nor apologize for it. When I search myself for my own sins I can not imagine what my dear departed ancestors could have done that would be any worse than I. The Lord saved those among them that He chose and he's done the same for me. All of us deserved death and eternal separation from Him.

Regardless of the faults of my ancestors, I still respect them and admire their willingness to fight for what they believed was right. I'm proud of them for that! The belief of state rights was clearly the central issue for them because it was still the topic of much discussion when, as a child, I heard my Father, Uncles, and Grandfather debating the issues of the state, nation, and world. I never heard them express regret at loosing any slave rights that might have been in times past. I did hear them greatly lament the federal government dictating more and more what they could and could not do in their own state. They had not forgotten what their parents told them and neither have I nor, with God's grace, will my children and grandchildren.

These old men were right and the evidence mounts each year that we did indeed let loose a monster in the form of the federal government with rapid growth after the civil war. The revisionists desire the story to be told differently but, as for my house, that will not happen again with God's grace. Likewise, the truth will be told about the Viet Nam war about which I'm even more passionate!

DeeJay, I certainly wish you the very best and, who knows, we're likely to find ourselves on the same side of the next debate.

 

They were merely running U.S. troops off, after they had been asked to leave. That is not the same as invading the U.S.

If you had asked the average American soldier during the War for Independence why he fought, he probably would not have known how to answer other than to say the 'Redcoats are Coming'. It was the same situation for the average Rebel soldier. When later asked why he had enlisted in the Confederate Army, a relative of mine, who was nothing more than a dirt farmer, answered simply, "Had to. The Yankees were coming".

You can speak from your position of moral superiority and condemn them as worse than Nazi. Go for it. And it's true that I can't go a week without reading some opinion piece comparing the Confederates to Nazis, so you are on the winning team. The fact is that every society in existance has practiced slavery at one time or another. Even those states north of the Mason-Dixon Line did, they just gave it up sooner. So a little less smugness would be in order.

 

I know, I said I was out of this. But this deserves comment.

This made me laugh hard. I guess Japan did not atack Pearl Harbor. They were merely running the U.S. troops out. We did not invade Iraq, we were merely running the Iraq troops out. We did not attack Germany on D-day, we were merely running the nazi troops out. We did not attack England during the revolutionary war, we were merely running their troops out.

I have made a clear distinction between the responsability of soldiers and leaders in the civil war and other wars during this thread. Although they choose the wrong side of the cause they for the most part were decent people who were wrong about some things. I have tried to make this about the cause not the people.

I have never stated that I am morally superior. But I see that the cause of the south was immoral. Do you speak out against abortion and other wrongs you see in this country and world. Does that put you speaking in a position of moral superiority.

Never ever said they were worse then Nazis. I compare them only becasue I find it inconsistant to condem the nazis for their abuse of human life then wave the flag of the conf goverment who also abused human life. We give a pass to our ancestors because they are ours.

If so many people have an opinion maybe it would be wise to consider it from an objective perspective. Realise that you are not objective and may be biased to one side. Try to see thing from another view point.

Every society has practiced homosexuality, abortion, murder, etc. etc. Make sure you are consistant and use that argument to defend every thing that all sociaties do.

If somebody tells you murder is wrong I want you to respond,

"The fact is that every society in existance has practiced murder at one time or another. Even those states north of the Mason Dixon line did. So less smugness would be in order.

The logic for your defense of slavery is other people did it first. Does that logic apply for all sins.

Is it smug to point out sin and immorality.

 

BTW, the whole North/South, who gave up slavery first thing. They were both wrong for ever having slaves. I am glad somebody decided it was wrong and gave it up. Neither North or South did it soon enough and they were both wrong at one point.

I live in the West. I am sure we have our own faults.

 

I have not defended slavery and don't put words in my mouth.

Yes. The Confederates were defeated, most of whom were not slaveholders. They went on with their lives and today Southernors are some of the most loyal and patriotic Americans. But you will not allow them any pride because they are and were sinful.

 

You try to mitigate their behavior. See your quote below. It is nothing but an excuse for their actions.

They should take pride in being loyal patriotic Americans and what they are now. They should not take pride in the actions of their ancestors by waving the conf flag that stood for their fight to keep slavery.