The Great Tribulation-Matt. 24:21

One problem is that the NT authors focus the church completely on the 1Thess 4 rapture and resurrection of the saints. As Peter said "Fix your hope Completely on the hope that is to be brought to you and the revelation of Jesus" 1Peter 1:13.

So we assume that this is the context and perspective for NT saints - like John.

Therefore when he looks into the future and sees the "First resurrection" the one over which the second death has no power - the resurrection of the saints that is associated with the appearing of Christ - AND he points out that the First resurrection starts the 1000 years - it leaves us with only one conclusion. The resurrection of 1Thess 4 starts the 1000 years, it is the resurrection of the righteous, the focus of the church, the first one that John sees in the future.

In Daniel 7 the 1260 years (1260 days) spans the time from the rise of the little horn power of Rome (the 4th empire) until the defeat of that little horn power.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan,

First of all, the church did not exist before Christ's birth. I know that Israel was a called out assembly and called a church in the wilderness in Acts 7:38, but was not part of the body of Christ as is today. Secondly, the saints of God are people of God, wether Old Testament or New. Thirdly, 1Thess.4 is the same resurrection of Rev.4. The first resurrection is in three parts. In Rev.4:1 Jonn is told that he would be shown things:"which must be hereafter". After what? After the church age, Chps. 2 and 3. John hears the trumpet of the call of the church.
The first ressurection is:
1] Christ Col.1:18; many old test. saints Matt.27:53
2] the Church 1Thess.4; 1Cor.15
3]The two witness and trib. saints Rev.12; 7:9,13

This is the first resurrection.

Remember the sheep will go "in" the door(Christ) at the rapture and come "out" the door at the 2nd advent(Rev.19:11,14)Jn.10:9. And "find pasture" in the kingdom age(Jn.10:4).

 

#1. There is no resurrection mentioned in Rev 4.

#2. John explicitly states in Rev 20 that "This Is the First resurrection" and over those in that first resurrection "the Second death has No power".

#3. The resurrection of the saints in 1Thess 4 is the same as the the resurrection of the righteous in Rev 20 in the "First resurrection" before the 1000 years.

#4. In Rev 12 the church begins Before the birth of Christ and continues on for at least a 1260 year period After the birth of Christ according to the chapter. And it does so in "persecution".

#5. Romans 11 specifically shows that the church today is place in the SAME place from which the one true Hebrew nation church fell. And of course as Romans 11 states "HE is able to Graft them back in AGAIN" if they do not continue in unbelief.

#6. As Hebrews 4:2 states "WE have had the Gospel preached TO US just as THEY also". And the result is that the giants of faith held up as examples before the NT saints - are the OT saints of Heb 11. "For without faith it is impossible to please God".

By taking the direct explicit statements of the book as the "primary" landmarks and then the "quesswork" that is so common as "interesting side notes" - you end up with a clearer view of what is taught in scripture - vs some interesting ideas floating around today.

In Christ,

Bob

[ July 29, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

BobRyan,

1# Rev. 4 is the rapture of the "church". The church is not on the earth after Rev.4 until Rev.19. Everything between ch.4 and ch.19 deals with Israel and the "Great Tribulation" as it is repeated four times, like the Gospels.

4# Again, the woman is Israel, not the church.

5.# Rom. 11 is talking about Israel as the natural branch, and the Gentiles are the wild olive tree that was grafted in because of Israels unbelief of the Godhead.

6# In Heb.4:2 is not talking about the "giants" of Heb.11. It's talking about the Jews and Gentiles of Paul's day.

It seems to me you have a problem with distinguishing between the church and Israel. You also have a time line problem. The 1st resurrection is in three parts. It starts with Christ and many Old Testament Saints, the church, then the tribuation Saints and the two witnesses.
That is the first resurrection. The resurrection of all the Saints. "But every man in his own order"(1Cor.15:23)

 

Note that in the seven letters which begin Revelation, Jesus doesn't refer to a "church age," but only to seven 1st-century churches "which are in Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

While I believe the church began in Acts 2, note that the Bible nowhere refers to a "church age," but instead says that the church will continue "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21). Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23) and the bride (Ephesians 5:30-32), and we must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).

Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn't at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

I believe the rapture trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52, Matthew 24:31, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 will be a literal trumpet, as these verses don't say "as of a trumpet" or "as it were of a trumpet," as it is says of the voice in Revelation 1:10, 4:1.

Jesus said "I am THE resurrection" (John 11:25). The question for us is, when are we who believe in Jesus first resurrected?

I don't believe Matthew 27:52-53 was a resurrection into immortal bodies but a resuscitation of mortal bodies, like the resuscitation of the mortal bodies of Lazarus (John 12:1) and Tabitha (Acts 9:40).

I believe "they that are Christ's" will not be resurrected and changed into immortal bodies until the 2nd coming: "Every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53), and Christ's 2nd coming hasn't happened yet.

I don't believe the raising of the two witnesses is the 1st resurrection for the same reasons raisings in the past weren't the 1st resurrection. I believe the two witnesses are merely resuscitated back into their mortal bodies like Lazarus or those many after Christ's resurrection were raised (John 12:9-10, Matthew 27:52-53), and translated in their mortal bodies into heaven like Elijah and Enoch were taken into heaven (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24).

In the pre-trib view, are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Israel? Are there Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?


http://geocities.com/postrib

 

1.
The term "1st resurrection" is only found in one place in all of scripture. It is not 3-parts. It starts the 1000 years according to Rev 20.

Anything else - is a "guess" going "beyond the text". The context for "the term" in its "only use in all of scripture" is easy - we see it in Rev 20 - it is John viewing the future and seeing the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 followed by "The First Resurrection" - the resurrection of the saints "Those over whom the second death has no power".

This is "the easy part".

2. Your statements above are merely assumptions about how the term "resurrection" and "rapture" and "appearing of Christ" might be "introduced" into the text of Rev 4 - when in fact - it is not there at all.

John gives detailed treatment to these subjects in Rev 19 and 20. Nothing at all is said about them in Rev 4.

Your supposition are simply not "in the text". You would have to go on to "show" that your suppositions had merit. Merely stating them - proves nothing.

3. John clearly comes out and in detail describes for the church - our future and the "First Resurrection" in Rev 20 - the resurrection of the righteous -- . Your supposition would turn this into an argument that John's identification of the "FIRST" resurrection in the future -- MISSES the entire focus of the NT church "Fix your Hope COMPLETELY in the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1Peter 1:13. And that "Redemption of the body" for which the entire NT church "groaned" as we see in Romans 8.

#4. There is No resurrection mentioned in Rev 4.

#5. The MOST direct and explicit treatment of the future resurrection by John in the book of Rev is in chapter 20. Period. Nothing else comes close.

#6. The Church is seen in Rev 12 JUST as we see it in Romans 11. The branches IN Christ included the Jews before the Cross and the Christians afterwards (as we see in Rom 11) but it is viewed as ONE entity by Paul in Rom 11. The same holds for John in Rev 12. ONE entity pre-cross the people of God AND continuing on post-cross. IN that same chapter they are identified as "the saints" and the timeline INCLUDES the pre-Cross anticipation of the Messiah, the birth of Christ, the persecution by Rome - His ascension into heaven AND the following persecution of the Christians by Rome following the ascension of Christ.

It is all there.

In Christ,

Bob