The Great Tribulation

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Christopher, Feb 23, 2002.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher
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    I thought I would start a new discussion. Of all Biblical studies, I would have to say that eschatology is the most confusing. I want to start this discussion by asking 3 questions:

    1.) Is there going to be a literal, seven- year, Great Tribulation? If so, why is it not mentioned in the NEW TESTAMENT? I know there is going to be tribulation in the last days, but does the Bible actually tell us how long it will last?

    2.) When Revelation talks about the waters of the earth turning into blood, men being stung by scorpion-like creatures with the pain lasting 5 months, and such as that...is that literal? I know some people say that none of that is really going to happen.

    3.) Will there really be a mark of the beast (666) in the future?

    I know there are some people who believe that there will be no Great Tribulation, so that is the main intenet of these questions is to find out how they would answer these questions. Thanks.
     
  2. Chet

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    Hello Christopher,

    Yes the Bible does teach the event you asked about. There will be a literal seven year period, and the passage you allude to are in the book of Revelation and are also literal. And there will also be a mark of the beast in which people will not be able to buy - sell - trade unless they have it. (Rev 13:16)

    Jesus spoke of the great tribulation in Matthew chapter 24. In verse 3 it says that his disciples came to him privately and asked him about the end of the age. He went on to tell them about the tribulation, in fact calling it the great tribulation.

    Matt 24:20-21
    For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    NKJV

    These event parallel those spoken of in the book of Revelation as the seven sealed book is opened, the wrath of God will be poured out upon the earth. Beginning with chapter 6 the seals reveal the plagues that will be carried out. In fact, these will be just as real as those found in Exodus when Moses went before Pharaoh.

    Other passages in the New Testament that also affirm the Trib. is found in 2 Thess 2:1-12 speaking of the deceit the Beast will have over the world. I believe firmly that Christ will rapture out the saints before the tribulation begins,

    1 Thess 4:16-17
    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
    NIV

    Paul goes on to teach us that we will not have to fear the wrath of God as we are not appointed to His wrath:

    1 Thess 5:8-9
    For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    NIV

    In fact proceeding this statement Paul describes the tribulation in the same way Jesus did in Matthew 24:8. (see 1Thess 5:1-3)

    The period of time between the time Christ takes us out of the world and the actual start time of the great tribulation in not clear. Yet I believe that it is immediate, as the Bible seems to imply this.

    Daniel 9:27 tells us that at the start of the seven year period there will be a covenant made. Then half way through this time it will be broken, and this is known as the Abomination that causes desolation. Matthew 24:15. In Revelation we read this begins the last of the seven years. (Rev 12:6) And this last half will be much worse than the first.

    I believe that the book of Revelation is literal, and must be understood in this light.

    I hope that this helps. God Bless!
     
  3. tyndale1946

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    The book of Revelation is symbolic and the symbolism has to also be religious symbolism. The Old Testament is also layed out this way in symbolism. Look at Ezekiel and Daniel for instance. Understand the symbolism and you understand the meaning. The times John lived in was full of religious turmoil and he stated he was their companion in tribulation. His letter was to the 7 churches of Asia? Why? Why not to all of Gods children then and in the future?
    To say that the book of Revelation is literal I believe is incorrect. All these terrible visions are symbolisms and the key to correct interpretation is understanding how they fit in the times of the early church... Just another opinion of the multitude many... Made Hal Lindsey and Jerry LaHayne rich men... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    I didn't realize whose original post this was until I checked the profile. Another fellow Primitve Baptist and brother have you opened a can of worms... I guess you're going fishing!... Brother(what ya usin for bait?)Glen [​IMG]
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Man, feel like starting ANOTHER poll on this puppy. Four basic ways of interpreting the events of The Tribulation</font>
    • Preterism - it all took place already in history, in the reign of Nero and Tatian</font>
    • Historicism - it has slowly taken place over the past 2000 years of history</font>
    • Spiritualism - it is symbolic and not real and is just an extended metaphor of good triumphing over evil</font>
    • Futurism - it will take place literally at a set time in the future</font>
    So if one holds to the "futurist" position (as I do) then to all your questions would be the answer "Yes" it will literally happen just the way it is described.
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    In the New Testament you will see a distinction between what the church was suffering called, ‘tribulation' [Romans 12:12], and the Great Tribulation [Matthew 24:21].

    The last half of the Great Tribulation is referred to in Revelation 11:2 & 3. After the rapture {meaning the taking of all saints to Heaven}; [I Thess. 4:17] there will be seven years of Great Tribulation which starts and is depicted in Revelation chapters six through nineteen. The first 3 ½ years after the rapture will not be as turbulent as the last 3 ½ years. When the Antichrist reveals himself he will turn into a world dictator but to confuse things more he will say he is the real Christ. That's why it says in Matthew 24:23 & 24 that if any one says go over here because Christ is here, people should not believe this to be the truth.

    Some cavalier teachers of the Word for the most part have a literal interpretation of all of the books of the Bible until they get to the Book of Revelation. Some use allegory because to stay with a more or less literal interpretation would violate their view of the theocratic Millinimum which is coming in the future that they refuse to believe.

    The last 3 ½ years of the Great Tribulation is clearly spelled out in Revelation 11:2 which says that Jerusalem, Israel will be trodden down by Gentile people/armies for forty-two months. When you figure this out it turns out to be 3 ½ years. In verse 3 the Apostle John says that the two witness who preach during the Great Tribulation will publish their message for 1,260 days again corroborating the same 3 ½ years suggested in verse 2. Most teachers of Biblical eschatology say that these two witness are probably Elijah and Enoch. Elijah was the O.T. prophet par excellence and in the Book of Jude verse 14 we learn that Enoch was also a prophet who prophecied the Second Coming of Christ. The unique thing about these two prophets is they never died a physical death. God has told us that it necessary for all men to die a physical death [Hebrews 9:27] and this will be true for these two prophets also. The Bible says, ‘that the Scripture cannot be broken,' [John 10:35] so these two witness will also succumb to physical death in Jerusalem. They will return from Heaven as true prophets, in the future, with God's true message for people, and the enemies of their message will kill them and they will ascend back into Heaven. [Rev. 11:12]. Notice ‘their enemies beheld their ascension' back to glory in the eternal world. This will be real and these witness will not be synthetic entities that some so-called Bible teachers speak about.

    Some teachers submit that we are in the Great Tribulation now, while others say we are in the Millenimum era during this church age. These last two views in this previous sentence are false. When Revelation chapter 6 comes into play the church will not be here on earth [I Thess. 4:17 & I Corinthians 15:51-58]. You mentioned water turning to blood; yes this will literally happen. You referred to scorpions in your post. In Revelation chapter 8:10 speaks also of an asteroid hitting the earth. Yes, this will also take place during this unprecedented Great Tribulation Period. You have probably noticed on television lately that scientists say we are due to have one hit our planet. Our national leadership is trying to develop missiles that we can fire at these asteroids if they invade our space. The name of the falling star that will collide with our earth will be called, Wormwood. This will happen as sure as the Bible is the Word of God. The reason why we know we are not in the Great Tribulation is because the events of Revelation chapters 6-19 have not been noticed on our earthly scene.

    The ‘mark of the Beast' will also take place. This reference is found in Revelation 13:11-18 especially vs. 14-18. The antichrist will make people take a mark in their forehead or on their right hand. I know the Bible says that many antichrists have gone out into the world. [I John 4:3] This antichrist, of the Great Tribulation era will make Hitler look like a Sunday School pupil. Note the Book of Daniel 12:1c ‘ . . . and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time Thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.' If anyone living on the earth takes this mark they will be expedited to Hell by the Lord at the time of their death. Those who refuse to take this stigmata will suffer physical death but through that event will be transported directly into Heaven as documented in Revelation 7:14. Take note of the words, ‘Great Tribulation' in counter distinction to suffering in apostolic times called ‘tribulation.'

    Daniel 12:11 indicates that a daily sacrifice will be reinstituted during the Great Tribulation. Even today there are a group of leaders who are trying to get ‘a perfect red heifer' available necessary for the cleansing of the priests in the future Great Tribulation Temple. Thus we read ‘when the daily sacrifice is taken away.' vs. 11. The daily sacrifices will be again in vogue not as a means to personal salvation, because Christ is our only atonement. It will, however, point back to the past as to how the animal sacrifice was a foreshadowing of the perfect Sacrifice found in Jesus' death at the Cross. Also, the antichrist will set up an image in the Temple and ask people to come and worship him. [Daniel 12:11 & Revelation 13:14 ‘ And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both spake and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.' Again, the time reference to keep in mind is 3 ½ years or 1,290 days which ever you prefer to use [Daniel 12:11]. Notice the repeated references to 42 months or the 1,290 days throughout the Old and New Testaments. There may be more references I am not sure about this point.

    The time from the rapture of the church into Heaven and the end of the Great Tribulation will be seven years. The middle of the Great Tribulation will be the time when the earthly, arch-enemy of Christ, a man, will raise his blasphemous head and world domineering authority.

    Any other view of eschatology other than this view in the minds and hearts of the men listed below along with my humble insight, are watered down views and erroneous at best.

    Let's keep looking up for our Redeemer is coming!

    I highly recommend to anyone's reading Prince of Darkness by Dr. Grant R. Jeffrey as scholar from Canada. {Bantam Books} Second book: Jerusalem In Prophecy by Dr. Randall Price with a Th.M. in O.T. and Semitic Languages and a Ph.D. in Middle Eastern Studies. {Harvest House Publishers} Third booklet: The Last Days Temple by Dr. Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy. {Harvest House Publishers} Dr. Ice is the Executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center in Washington, D.C. He holds an advanced degree from Dallas Theological Seminary and a Ph.D. from Tyndale Theological Seminary. Dr. Demy received his Th.M and Th.D. in Historical Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary.

    My best regards,

    Ray Berrian Th.D.
     
  7. HankD

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    Dear brother Ray,

    You wrote...

    &lt;&lt;God has told us that it necessary for all men to die a physical death [Hebrews 9:27] and this will be true for these two prophets also. The Bible says, ‘that the Scripture cannot be broken,' [John 10:35] so these two witness will also succumb to physical death in Jerusalem&gt;&gt;

    Isn't this an argument against "the rapture"?

    Raptured people do not die but are changed from mortal to immortal.

    "and we shall be changed (allasso)".

    HankD
     
  8. Michael D. Edwards

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    I'm coming in late, but it seems that no one has answered the good brothers questions really as they relate to scripture. The first one was if there would be a literal 7 year Tribulation period and if so, why doesn't the NT teach it. Many of you have pointed to scriptures about a great time of tribulation, but seems any and all have failed to point to one NT text that says it lasts 7 years specifically, and specifically AFTER a rapture of the church.

    In Christ Alone
    Michael
     
  9. Chet

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    Michael D. Edwards

    I guess I don't know what you mean Michael, I thought I did. I read Ray's post and thought he did too. The passages in Revelation, Matthew, and Thessalonians. I also believe Peter spoke of this future even in his first sermon. And briefly touched on it in 2 Peter. Last I checked, all these were in the New Testament.
    Besides that, does all these events need to be reiterated? If the Old Testament teaches this, and has yet to be fulfilled why is this not enough?

    God Bless!
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    HankD,

    Actually, Hank all of the saved dead under both covenants will rise bodily from their graves. That is why Paul said in I Thess. 4:16 that ' . . . the dead in Christ shall rise first' and then living saints at the time of the rapture will meet with the Lord also in the clouds and then on to glory above.

    There is no point that can contridict the rapture of the church before the future Second Coming of Christ to the earth in Jerusalem. [Zecharaiah 14:4 & Revelation 19:11-21].

    My only point was that every human being is appointed at some time to die, including Elijah and Enoch. As you know they were immediately translated to Heaven without going through death. They will experience this during the Great Tribulation as recorde in Revelation 11:3-12.

    Is there anything you do not understand about this?

    My regards,

    Ray
     
  11. Christopher

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    Brethren,

    First of all I noticed some of you used 1 Corinthians 15:52 to support the "Rapture" theory, and a theory it is indeed!

    "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:52)

    The term "last" which precedes the word "trump" seems to be of no significance to to "Rapture" crowd. For something to be called last, there has to be a first, correct? So, when is the first trumpet? Is it a coincidence that Jesus referred to his final coming to judge the nations as being accompanied by the sound of a trumpet (Matt. 24:31)? I think not! So then, are both the "Rapture" and the Second Coming, since there seems to be a disctinction in your thinking, both accompanied by the sound of a trumpet?

    I never meant to go into all this deatail. Since the issues were brought up, I will address them. I simply was asking particularly about the "Great Tribulation." In my Bible the "g" nor the "t" are capitalized in Matthew 24:21. I, therefore, see no distinction.

    Furthermore, the Rapture is not Biblical. Peter said Christians are to be "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Pet. 3:12). Why would Peter tell Christians to be looking for the day when God is to come back and destroy the earth if Christians were not going to be here?

    Also, this eradicates the doctrine of the "Millennium," saying the earth is going to literally melt away when Christ returns.

    Unless any of you brethren can convince me otherwise, I stand firm on the word of God.

    Grace, mercy, and peace - Christopher
     
  12. Chet

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    Christopher [edited because I realized I put the wrong name here.]

    You are quick to want to compare the word trumpet, yet fail to compare the entire context. In Matthew, there is a completely different context structure concerning the judgments. These same judgments are spoken of in the Revelation. While both may have trump, these trumpet sounds are completely different events. The trumpets signaled the apearance of God, for example:

    Ex 19:16-17
    On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
    NIV

    Likewise, of course, we don’t equate this trumpet with having to do with anything concerning the resurrection, why should we always assume that all trumpets will be pointing to the final resurrection? When they don’t. Paul’s reference to 1 Cor. 15:52 is the same one in 1 Thess. 5:16-17. In the Old Testament the trumpet was used in the camp of Israel to call the assembly together. The first trumpet called them to arise and be ready to depart. The second blow was the signal to march. When God descended on Mt. Sinai the people assembled at the sound to the trump of God. Likewise at the first sound the dead in Christ will be raised. At the second sound the living saints will meet in the air.

    I am wondering what difference it makes if they are capitalized? Jesus was clearly speaking plainly about a time that will be so bad since the beginning of the world. These whole entire events he describes are unveiled to us in Revelation. I will never figure out how one would even go about trying to symbolize these passages away. It is clearly to be read literally and understood that way. Furthermore the Bible is its best interpreter.

    Just because Peter did not expound on all of the future events, as Jesus did in Matthew and Revelation, does not mean they don’t exist. I once went to Church with a man who insisted that anything John wrote was in error. He wanted to stick with what Peter wrote! Peter was speaking to the Jews, as he was in Acts. He was not teaching on the Rapture as Paul did, who was a missionary to the Gentiles. We can read of the same events Peter described in Revelation, look at the parallel:

    2 Peter 3:13
    But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
    NIV

    Rev 21:1
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
    NIV

    I guess one would simply have to read Revelation 6 - 20 to understand the rest of the story.

    No your chronology is wrong. This will happen after the millennium

    Rev 20:5-6
    Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
    NIV

    Well I truly hope that you remain open minded about this, and that you would study this subject a bit more. From Samuel, to the Prophets to the Gospels (especially Matthew) to the Epistles, and to Revelation they all teach in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ. God promised this to the Israel Nation and will fulfill it.

    For further reading I recommend, Prophecy 14 Essential Keys to Understanding the Final Drama by Dr. John F. Walvoord. And by the same author, The Revelation of Jesus Christ Also Things to Come by Dwight J. Pentecost. There are more, but these are good.

    God Bless! [​IMG]

    [ February 26, 2002, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Chet ]
     
  13. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    1. No.
    2. No
    3. No. :D
     
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Chet,

    I found a new truth through you. I loved your perception of the sound of the trumpet, being the approaching of God Himself. You proved it through Exodus 19, I Cor. 15 and and I Thess. 4. I will add this among truths received and proven by the Word of God.

    In I Thess. 4:17, you know, that only the dead IN CHRIST will be raised, not the wicked dead. I say this for the benefit of the other brethren. The wicked dead will be raised as Rev. 20:5 says, after the l,000 year Millinimum reign of Christ comes to a conclusion. Thus we read, ' . . . the rest lived not again until the thousand years were finished.'

    Because of His wonderful grace received into my life, I intend to be among the 'dead in Christ' not unless He comes will I am still discussing theology.

    Rayl
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    Christopher,

    I capitalized Great Tribulation so people who do not feel there will be a unique tribulation, might consider this real event in the future. Other references, basicly, use the term 'tribulation' indicating the powerful influence of ungodly, world governments in apostolic times. There indeed was persecution, but not what will be unleased by the Devil when His church is safely in His Kingdom above. The 'salt of the earth' will evaporate from the earth, as it were, when we are in the Presence of Jesus.

    Ray
     
  16. LP

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    This is a very compelling book on the Great Tribulation. It utterly changed the wayI think about the issue because it is very hard to argue with once you get into the actual details of his argument. Here is the book which is on line in its entirity: The Great Tribulation by David Chilton

    Read it, consider it.
     
  17. HankD

    HankD
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    Dear Ray,

    You wrote in response to my post...

    &lt;&lt;My only point was that every human being is appointed at some time to die, including Elijah and Enoch. As you know they were immediately translated to Heaven without going through death. They will experience this during the Great Tribulation as recorde in Revelation 11:3-12.&gt;&gt;

    First, I am not firmly resolved as to what I believe about the details of the Second Coming.
    I have a lot of inner resistance to a secret rapture in which Christians are caught up into heaven and unbelievers are left behind. I do believe that there will be great tribulation before the Day of the Lord (The wrath of God) but that believers will be protected from it as we are not appointed unto wrath.
    Personally I prefer putting the "rapture" on the "last day", the day before the beginning of the millenial reign of Christ.

    But as to your comment above : "every human being is appointed at some time to die".

    What about those who are caught up to meet Him in the air? They will not die but are "changed" (Grk - allasso).

    This is by no means a criticism of this aspect of your faith, but I am curious about your view of these who are caught up? Do you see the "change" Pauls speaks of as a form of death? or perhaps a fulfilment of each person's appointment with death?

    HankD
     
  18. Christopher

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    Brethren,

    No one has yet answered my question about 1 Corinthians 15:52. I asked why it made reference to the "last" trump. Well, why how could it be called "last" if there was never a first?

    Grace, mercy, and peace - Christopher
     
  19. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    HankD,

    Your point is duly noted and an observation well made.

    I think that when the rapture takes place this will sound the closing of the church age. [Romans 11:25f] ' . . . until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.' I, however, believe that martyrs who are Gentiles will be saved through death during the Great Tribulation. [Revelation 7:9] ' . . . a great multitude from all nations, people and languages.'

    When He comes for the church at the rapture, you are right, that those living will never die. It must be noted that God tells us, or sets us straight about this fact in I Thessalonians 4:15, so apparently it is fine with the God of the ages. The Apostle Paul says this. 'For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, THAT WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD SHALL NOT PREVENT THOSE WHICH ARE ASLEEP. {meaning dead.} This I believe is the only exception as to what Christ said about everyone being appointed to a physical death. God, apparently, has not made this exception for Elijah and Enoch or he would have stated this in Scripture just as He did about the above verse.

    My regards,

    Ray
     
  20. Chet

    Chet
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    Christopher Did you read my post? I thought I did explain the trumps. 1 Cor 15 is referring to the same trumps in 1 Thess 4. Please go back and read my post.

    Hank and Ray

    My thoughts on Hebrews 9:27 are, the word appointed means:

    I certainly don’t know Greek, but looking at the Zodhiates grammatical notations, for the words to die it has an aorist infinitive which
    All this to make two observation. One considering the word for appoint, we could simply say that even though we have an appointment to die, we could simply miss that appointment. I know in my profession, many of my potential clients don’t have a problem missing their appointment :( . Second, considering the tense of the words to die it is also conceivable that we are simply dying right now. We are appointed to die completely, but we will miss the final stage. That is if we have the privilege of being raptured before our death.

    Ray I am thankful that you learned a nugget of truth. And that someone read my post [​IMG] . But let me tell you, I have been reading a lot of your post, and have enjoyed them.

    God Bless!!
     

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