The Great Whore is Religious Rome

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Feb 11, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

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    1 ¶ And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
    2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
    4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
    5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
    6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


    The Great Whore is not secular Rome or secular governments for many contextual based reasons:

    1. She is distinguished from the "kings of the earth"

    2. She is distinguished from the "beast" which is inclusive of the descriptions of secular governments in the book of Daniel (Dan. 7).

    3. She is defined as the persecutor and killer of the Apostles and all the saints upon the earth but the Roman persecution of Christians had not yet been world wide at the writing of Revelation.

    4. She is distinctively identified as "Mystery Babylon" which is a religious designation of the Babylonian "mystery" religion.

    5. The seat of the Mystery Religions was headquartered in Rome at the time John wrote.

    6. She coexists with the final kings on earth who join with the beast in his attack upon Christ at the second coming of Christ and yet Secular Rome was defeated by the Goths in 476 AD

    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
    .....
    16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    7. The time that the Great Whore is destroyed is not until the end of this age in the "one hour" when the ten kings join with the Beast to fight the King of Kings and the saints who come with him at His return.

    8. She is identified as the city of Rome - Rev. 17:21 as this is where she rules from.

    9. She is contrasted with the true religion of Christ

    1. Both are characterized as women (Great Whore vs The Bride)
    2. Both are characterized as cities (earthly Rome vs heavenly Jerusalem)
    3. Both are characterized as having saints occupy them (Rev. 18:4; 19:6-9

    She represents "Mystery Babylon" Religion as an institutionalized religion/state religion that has persecuted all the saints upon the face of the earth from Genesis to the second coming of Christ but occupies Rome from the time of John to the Second Coming of Christ and includes the Roman Catholic Church and all religions coming of her (Her Reformed daughters).
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Feb 11, 2014
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  2. Walter

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    The First Vatican Council taught that "the Church itself . . . because of its marvelous propagation, its exceptional holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in all good works; because of its Catholic unity and invincible stability, is a very great and perpetual motive of credibility and an incontestable witness of its own divine mission" (On the Catholic Faith 3).

    So why is the Bride maligned as the Whore? Jesus himself answered the question: "If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household" (Matt. 10:25). "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world . . . the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you" (John 15:18–20).
     
  3. Walter

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    Here is part of tract that is produced by 'Catholic Answers' that is called 'Hunting the Whore of Babylon' that is in response to Dave Hunt's book. I'd be interested in observations to this material. I usually don't cut & paste Catholic material but this presents a position biblically that I think makes perfect sense:

    It is well known that the early Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as "Babylon"; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Historically, a number of commentators, both Protestant and Catholic, have adopted this interpretation.



    The Seven Heads



    Continuing in Revelation, the angel begins to explain to John the woman’s symbolism: "This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while" (Rev. 17:9–10).

    Fundamentalists argue that these seven mountains must be the seven hills of ancient Rome. However the Greek word here, horos, is almost always translated "mountain" in Scripture. Mountains are often symbols of kingdoms in Scripture (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Obad. 8–21; Amos 4:1, 6:1), which might be why the seven heads also symbolize seven kings. The mountains could stand for a series of seven kings, five of whom have already fallen.

    This passage gives us a key rule of Bible interpretation which is often denied by Fundamentalists: A symbol does not have to refer to one and only one thing. Here Scripture itself tells us that the heads refer both to seven mountains and seven kings, meaning the symbol has multiple fulfillments. Thus there is not a one-to-one correspondence in the Bible between symbols and their referents.

    Also, the mountains could be a reference to pagan Rome, yet the Whore could still be a reference to apostate Jerusalem. In this case, her sitting on the Beast would not indicate a geographical location but an alliance between the two powers. The Whore (Jerusalem) would be allied with the Beast (Rome) in persecuting "the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus." (Note that the Whore also sits on many waters, which we are told are many peoples, [cf. 17:15]. The context makes it clear that here her "sitting" on something does not refer to a geographical location.)

    This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore. We are told that the heads "are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come." If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John’s day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of commentators see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John’s time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the Whore) is Rome.



    The Ten Horns



    The angel also interprets for John the meaning of the Beast’s ten horns: "And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind and give over their power and authority to the beast; they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful" (17:12–14).

    This shows us that the Beast is allied with ten lower rulers and with their own territories. Some Fundamentalists bent on making this apply to modern times and the Catholic Church have argued that the horns refer to the European Community (EC) and a revived Roman empire with the Catholic Church at its head. The problem is that there are ten kings, but there are now many more than ten nations in the EC.

    However, what we are told about the horns does fit one of the other candidates we have for the Whore—apostate Jerusalem. The angel tells John: "And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and giving over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (17:16–17).

    If the Whore is Jerusalem and the Beast is Rome (with the ten horns as vassal states), then the prophecy makes perfect sense. The alliance between the two in persecuting Christians broke down in A.D. 66–70, when Rome and its allied forces conquered Israel and then destroyed, sacked, and burned Jerusalem, just as Jesus prophesied (Luke 21:5–24).



    The Whore’s Authority



    Finally the angel tells John: "And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth" (17:18). This again points to pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem. In the case of the former, the dominion would be political; in the case of the latter, it could be a number of things. It could be spiritual dominion in that Jerusalem held the religion of the true God. It could be a reference to the manipulation by certain Jews and Jewish leaders of gentiles into persecuting Christians.

    It could even be political, since Jerusalem was the center of political power in Canaan and, under the authority of the Romans, it ruled a considerable amount of territory and less powerful peoples. On this thesis "the kings of the earth" would be "the kings of the land" (the Greek phrase can be translated either way). Such local rulers of the land of Canaan would naturally resent Jerusalem and wish to cooperate with the Romans in its destruction—just as history records they did. Local non-Jewish peoples were used by the Romans in the capture of Jerusalem.



    The hub of world commerce



    Continuing in chapter 18, John sees the destruction of the Whore, and a number of facts are revealed which also show that she cannot be the Catholic Church. For one, she is depicted as a major center of international trade and commerce. When it is destroyed in chapter 18, we read that "the merchants of the earth [or land] weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo any more" (18:11) and "all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea . . . wept and mourned, crying out, ‘Alas, alas, for the great city, where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth!’" (18:17–19).

    Pagan Rome was indeed the hub of world commerce in its day, supported by its maritime trading empire around the Mediterranean, but Christian Rome is not the hub of world commerce. After the Reformation, the economic center of power was located in Germany, Holland, England, and more recently, in the United States and Japan.



    Persecuting apostles and prophets



    When the Whore falls we read, "‘Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you’. . . . In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth" (18:20, 24). This shows that the Whore persecuted not just Christians, but apostles and prophets. Apostles existed only in the first century, since one of the requirements for being an apostle was seeing the risen Christ (1 Cor. 9:1). Prophets existed as a group only in the Old Testament and in the first century (Acts 11:27–28, 13:1, 15:32, 21:10).

    Since the Whore persecuted apostles and prophets, the Whore must have existed in the first century. This totally demolishes the claim that Christian Rome or Vatican City is the Whore. Rome was not a Christian city at that time, and Vatican City did not even exist, so neither of them could be the Whore. Furthermore, Fundamentalists continually (though wrongly) claim that Catholicism itself did not exist in the first century, meaning that based on their very own argument Catholicism could not be the Whore!

    Fundamentalists are fond of conjecturing that in the last days there will be a "revived Roman empire," such as the one that persecuted Christians in the first century. Yet they never draw the inference that this empire would be headed by a revived pagan Rome, with the bishop of Rome leading the Christian underground, just as he did in the first century.

    Still, Revelation 18:20 and 18:24 prove that the Whore had to be a creature of the first century, which, in the Fundamentalist view, the Catholic Church was not. Thus, on their own view, their identification of the Catholic Church with the Whore is completely impossible! Only ancient, pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem could possibly be the Whore.
     
  4. DHK

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    The Vatican is its own "city-state." In that it is unique. There is no other "country" like it in the world. There is no other "religion" like it in the world. It is neither fully Christian nor fully pagan. It is a half breed. Being in that position it murders innocent true believers; always has. It protects its own from true justice. As I indicated the world is sitting up and finally taking notice of this great injustice. Read carefully:

    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/un-slams-vatican-39-cover-sex-abusers-posing-185400019.html
    UN Slams Vatican

    http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/...wed-priests-to-rape-children-un-report-says-1
    Vatican Policies
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

    Here is Biblical proof positive that New Testament Christianity is no part of Roman Catholicism as the SELF-patronizing spirit behind Rome is a spirit foreign to New Testament Christianity "we dare not MAKE OURSELVES OF the number" of those who do this as illustrated in your self-condemning quotation.
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Feb 11, 2014
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  6. The Biblicist

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    John never says the woman "is" the seven hills. He says the woman "is" that city which PRESENT TENSE "reigneth" over the world. Jersualem during or after John has NEVER ruled over the kingdoms of this world. Only Rome was reigning PRESENT tense when John wrote - period! So you can spiritualize the hils till the cows come in as John NEVER says the Great Whore "IS" the seven hills but rather sats "UPON" the seven hills.

    Second, there is COINAGE during the first century which have Rome represented as a woman with a cup sitting on the seven hills of Rome. Christians living at that time would immediately recognize this language to represent Rome and the Babylonian Mystery Religion headquartered at Rome with Ceasar as its religious head who was called the "Pontiff."

    The Great Whore is Rome - Period!
     
  7. Protestant

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    Questions for Roman Catholics

    (1) If God is love, who allegedly loves and tolerates all people of all faiths, then why on earth is there eternal punishment promised, with no possibility of reprieve or let up, especially for those who take the Mark of the Beast?

    (2) If the Mark of the Beast is administered via the right hand and forehead as described in the Revelation, why on earth does the Roman Catholic Church use this same method for signing the sign of the cross in all its rituals and blessings?

    (3) If, in the Roman Catholic Latin Bible, the 'mark' - as in 'Mark' of the Beast - is translated characterem, why on earth did she use the identical Latin word - characterem - when describing the 'indelible mark' given in her sacraments of baptism, confirmation and holy orders?

    (4) If the City of 7 Hills, Rome, is identified in the Revelation as the headquarters of the false church, the Mother of all Harlots, doomed to damnation by the infallible word of prophecy, why on earth did the Roman Catholic Church choose that site for her Holy See and Pontificate?

    (5) If the beast from the earth, the false prophet doomed to damnation, is depicted as having two horns like the Lamb, Jesus, why on earth do the Roman Catholic Cardinals, Bishops and Pontiff wear two-horned miters?

    (6) If the false church, doomed to damnation, her capital in Rome, is named Mother, why on earth do Roman Catholics call her holy Mother the Church?

    (7) If the false church, doomed to damnation, whose dominance, sway and authority is worldwide as described in the Revelation, why on earth did the Church of Rome call herself 'Catholic,' which means 'universal,' comprehending the whole world?

    (8) If the false church, doomed to damnation, is depicted clothed in purple and scarlet in the Revelation, why on earth did the Roman Catholic Church choose those colors for her Pope, Cardinals and Bishops?

    (9) If the false church, doomed to damnation, is portrayed in the Revelation as wealthy beyond belief, wearing costly gold and precious stones and pearls, why on earth is the Roman Catholic Church the richest institution, whose wealth is incalculable?

    (10) If, in the Revelation, the false church doomed to damnation, is seen drinking the blood of the martyrs of Jesus in a golden cup, why on earth did the Roman Catholic Church spill the innocent blood of the true Christians who refused to partake the cup of the Mass, which of necessity must also be golden in its interior, if not its exterior?

    (11) If the word of prophecy warned 1st century Christians of the coming Antichrist, why on earth did the Pope claim to be the Vicar of Christ when this title, translated into the Greek, is 'ANTICHRIST'?
     
  8. Walter

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    Protestant: This is called 'plagiarism'. You cut & pasted this from 'Iconbusters' a rabid anti-Catholic site. It is not your work and you would be banned from many boards for doing such. Now, you can come back and say that you forgot to put quotes around it and also forgot to cite your source, but I think that would be 'bull' wouldn't it?

    These questions are laughable, especially the one asking why the pope chose the colors of purple & scarlet to wear. Did you know he wears vestments of green, white, purple, & red also?

    Oh, and the incredible wealth of the Church? Are you aware that the Catholic Church does more to feed and clothe the poor than ANY other institution on earth? You think the clergy are rolling in dough? I can’t speak for the entire world, but the average salary of an American bishop is 23,000 dollars a year, about half the average American’s. The average priest’s is 40,000 dollars a year, only 20,000 of which is actually “take home cash”. I know of MANY Baptists pastors making WAY more than that! And if you’re the Pope, not only does your salary suck, but you don’t get it until you’re dead. Pope’s get one gold, silver and copper coin for each year of service placed on their coffin. Blessed John Paul II received about $141 dollars.

    And for #11, the following in Envoy magazine takes the bogus Vicarius Filii Dei apart: http://biblelight.net/envoy.htm

    Every one of these 'questions' can be challenged quite easily, but they are not the point of the thread, have been addressed countlessly on this board and takes the discussion down many different roads. BTW, I hope cut & pasting anti-Catholic pages off the internet is not REALLY what this board really wants practiced by it's members, does it?
     
    #8 Walter, Feb 12, 2014
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  9. DHK

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    Those of the bride have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; their garments are white as snow. They are the redeemed in Christ.

    Not so with the RCC. Her doctrines are the doctrines of demons; heretical doctrines; doctrines that stand directly opposed to salvation by grace through faith (Eph.2:8,9), as the Bible so often declares.

    It is a murderous organization not caring for the souls of men. It has been in the past as seen when it wiped out the Albigenses under Pope Innocent III.

    It is in the present. But this time our world is sitting up and taking notice.
    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/us-archdiocese-39-bankruptcy-plan-set-aside-4m-153953182.html

    The RCC is going bankrupt trying to pay back victims of sexual abuse.
    I think this will go on for some number of years as victims will not be shy now to come forward.
    But now, it exposes the RCC for the monster for who she really is--not God's church!!
     
  10. plain_n_simple

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    7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

    8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

    10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

    11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

    12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

    13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

    14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

    15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

    16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

    17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

    18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

    19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

    23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.



    This describes the United States, and New York City. It is also the religious right who have traded Holy Spirit supernatural power for political power to attempt changing men's hearts. Capitalism in a democracy run by ungodly men, put there by religious churches, not true believers, is the reason America falls today, and has turned into the great whore.
     
  11. plain_n_simple

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    7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

    8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

    10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

    11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

    12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

    13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

    14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

    15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

    16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

    17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

    18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

    19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

    23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.



    This describes the United States, and New York City. It is also the religious right who have traded Holy Spirit supernatural power for political power to attempt changing men's hearts and actions through legislation. Won't work for ya. Capitalism in a democracy run by ungodly men, put there by religious churches, not true believers, is the reason America falls today, and has turned into the great whore.
     
  12. Walter

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    You can continue your citing of the sex abuse scandal all you want, DHK. But don't keep denying that they don't go on in Baptists churches and that they are not covered up. I've witnessed it first-hand in the Baptist church I grew up in and have posted plenty of evidence of Baptists cover-ups before on this board. You simply hate Catholics and will post anything possible to make Catholics look non-Christian. I fellowship with Catholics everyday and know they have given their hearts to the Lord. The priests and deacons of my parish are Christ centered Christians, so your 'murderous, monstrous organization' cries are falling on deaf ears here.

    Oh, and BTW, doesn't it bother you in the slightest as a moderator that you have board members plagiarizing on this board? (Protestants last post) Or does the end justify the means when it comes to your anti-Catholicism?
     
    #12 Walter, Feb 12, 2014
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  13. Protestant

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    Please prove plagiarism on my part.

    If you cannot, then you bear false witness.....a sin not unusual for The Great Whore, the Mother of all Harlots....a sin guaranteed to bar you from eternal life in the Holy City. (Rev. 21:27)

    P. S. I look forward to your point by point 'refutation' of points 2 - 11.

    The likelihood these ten points are 'mere coincidences' is statistically impossible.
     
  14. Walter

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    http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/htm/false_ch/1_8/part1.htm

    Or, are you going to claim YOU are the author, Rand Winburn??? If so, I apologize for assuming it is plagiarism. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
    I like the way Fr. Patrick McCafferty 'refutes' the first ten of this nonsense. Patrick Madrid did a great job refuting #11 in my previous post (which you obviously didn't read).

    "I have been made aware of Rand Winburn's comments. This is a reply to each of his eleven points.. "

    "(1) God, indeed, is love. This affirmed constantly by Scripture. The eternal punishment of Hell is the end of those who have wilfully and deliberately persisted in resisting Grace and refusing to Love. (Mt 26:41-46) The rich man in Jesus Parable, in Lk 16:19-31 went to Hell because he ignored the plight of the poor man Lazarus. God alone can judge who will be lost and who will be saved. He alone can know the inmost heart of a person. That is why the Lord gave most explicit warning in Mt 7:1-5. Christians of the mindset of Mr Winburn, Andrews McAllister et alia be very careful "FOR THE JUDGEMENT YOU GIVE WILL THE JUDGEMENT YOU RECEIVE!"

    (2) The Mark of the Beast is the ownership and control of the Evil One, over those who are given over to hatred throughout history. There are human beings whose behaviour is bestial. There are human beings at loose in the world who are like predators. Our Sign of the Cross, which we make upon our persons and as a mark of blessing has nothing whatsoever to do with the Mark of the Beast. We make the sign of the Cross to remind ourselves of our Redemption by the Lord's Cross and our belonging to Him.



    (3) Why on earth should the Church not use the Latin word for 'Mark'? A word is a description of something. A 'Mark' can be a good thing as well as something bad. In the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Ordination, an indelible character is imprinted on the soul - it is God's Mark of ownership on us.

    (4) The Apostle John was writing in exile on Patmos. The Roman Emperor and authorities were ferociously persecuting the Church. John's vision was to give encouragement to the faithful in Rome and everywhere else, that they would not lose heart. (Rev 13:10). John is referring to pagan Rome, guilty of murder and idolatry - not to Christian Rome. The Christian Church became centred in Rome because of Peter and Paul's martyrdom there.

    (5) The Pope and Bishops of the Church do not wear "two-horned mitres".

    (6) The woman referred to in Revelation is the "Mother of Harlots". This is not the true Church of Christ - His Bride and His Body. Catholics rightly refer to the Church as Mother because of Isaiah 66: 10-14 and Ps 87.

    (7)The Church is called Catholic since the beginning because its mission is universal (Mt 28:19-20) Writing in AD 110 to the church at Smyrna, St Ignatius of Antioch states: " Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. And in the account of the martyrdom of St Polycarp AD 155: "When finally Polycarp had finished his prayer, in which he remembered everyone with whom he had ever been acquainted .... and the whole Catholic church throughout the world, and the moment of departure had arrived, they seated him on an ass and led him into the city. It was a great Sabbath".

    8.Purple and Red are not evil colours. For example, in the Song of Songs, the Throne of our Heavenly Bridegroom is described in 3:9-10: "He has made the posts of silver, the canopy of gold, the seat of PURPLE. The Cardinals of the Church wear red to indicate their willingness to die for the Faith. The bishops wear purple as it was once associated with nobility. However, the normal dress for the Holy Eucharist and other liturgical ceremonies for cardinals, bishops, priests and the Pope is an ankle-length white garment called an Alb. he wears a Stole and over all a Chasuble - the most frequently used colours of these vestments are white and green. Purple is worn during Advent and Lent. Red is worn at Pentecost and on the Feastdays of martyrs.



    9. This business about the Catholic Church's wealth is just nonsense. A few years ago the Vatican State was in debt. My own parish is far from wealthy. The "wealth" of the Church is mostly priceless works of art that are part of the human races culture.

    (10) Mr Winburn should be aware that the innocent blood of many Catholic Christians, bishops, priests and laity, was spilt in persecutions of the Catholic Church because they refused to abandon the True faith of the Church in the Holy Eucharist. Writing in the First Century, St Ignatius of Antioch affirmed: "the Eucharist is the True Flesh of our Saviour, Jesus Christ".

    In regard to the Chalice having, "of necessity" to be golden on the interior if not on the exterior, this simply untrue. I have seen chalices of polished wood. I have regularly celebrated Mass using chalices made of pottery and also crystal or glass. All the church asks is that the Chalice be of a worthy and non-porous material, for it is to contain the Precious Blood of the Lord."
     
    #14 Walter, Feb 13, 2014
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  15. Walter

    Walter
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    Fr. McCafferty goes on to say:

    "The Mystery Babylon described in Rev 17 is not and could not be the Catholic Church. John's vision describes a city of abominations which he terms Babylon. This city is a figure, along with the Beast, for all the depravity and wickedness of the earth which blinds people to love and goodness, making their hearts cold and hard towards the True God.

    Babylon also represents that spiritual power of darkness in the world which originates all wickedness and is the sworn enemy of the Lord Jesus and His saints. There is, at loose in this world today and throughout history, an evil that captures the souls of people - we see it today in rampant materialism, impiety and Godlessness. This spiritual force which, is the real Babylon of John, usurps Almighty God as the Only One Who can satisfy the longings of the human heart, in Whom Alone is our only hope and our true and eternal Home.

    All true Christians are opposed to this, the real system of Evil, which binds, blinds and corrupts. Babylon and the Beast are figures for the brutality and savagery of evil. Materialism dehumanises people created in God's image and likeness. It creates a merciless and pitiless environment.

    There are many Babylons in the world today and many who manifest the Mark of Beast, on the forehead and on their right hand, on account of their minds being in darkness because they are turned away for God and their hands grasping and lashing out in selfishness, towards their fellow human beings."
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Question.....does it lead to controversy? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  17. Zenas

    Zenas
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    It's a terrible blight on the Catholic Church. However, it seems the Catholic Church is just the vanguard of the whole problem, which is now being exposed in Baptist churches and others as well. Here is what nationally known trial lawyer Jeff Herman says about the situation in Baptist churches.
    DHK I recognize you take a lot of pleasure in posting these stories of abuse in the Catholic Church but according to someone who makes a living suing churches the situation in Baptist churches is just as bad. We probably don't hear about them as often because there are a lot fewer Baptists, and also most people in the secular press regard Baptists as culturally irrelevant.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    I know personally of (past) sexual abuse cases within the most 'fundamental' of Baptist Churches (through my in-laws) involving the most hard core 'fundamental' preachers and it riles me to no end. When I found out it was all I could do NOT to get in a couple of these pukes faces, because I KNEW them, but I was sworn to secrecy and was never around them again. Last I heard at least one of the victims was writing a book about it.

    No, Catholics don't have a corner on that sin.
     
  19. Walter

    Walter
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    LOL, yes, I guess it does! But websites such as Iconbusters and Chick Publications are a disservice to the truth. Chick Publications has been outed more than once for publishing fictitious biographies of Alberto Rivera (Jack Chick says he was a 'Jeusuit spy'), a former Catholic priest (actually NEVER a priest), and other 'converts'. Christianity Today did a feature exposing the lies and deceptions published by Chick Publications.

    Check out Iconbusters, what Rand Winburn accuses the Catholic Church of is sad and disgusting but also kind of funny in a twisted way. For example (under a picture of the Pope and Cardinal Law):

    Cardinal Law discusses his retirement package with his Head, the Antichrist.
    Unlike Christ, who cuts evil servants asunder, appointing them their portion with the weeping hypocrites, the Antichrist offers him a sweetheart deal consisting of immunity from prosecution, immediate beatification, at least one life-size idol made in his image, lifetime pension, severance pay, stock options, gratis medical, dental and mental care, oh, and free dry cleaning of all religious costumes, capes, caps and miters. Now do you think this guy realizes that you have to be DEAD to be beatified? I don't think this is someone who has the intellect or abilty to research to make any half way plausible arguments. Just a vent in hyperspace.

    What fun this website is. Is there anyone Rand Winburn doesn't hate??? :laugh: This not the first time Mr. Winburn has raised his hateful head on a board, Mr. Winburn has a strange notion as seen in the nonsense posted above that he had discovered precisely what the "Sign of the Beast" was. It was the sign of the cross, i.e., crossing oneself. He shopped this silliness around a couple of RC boards, where Catholics took him up on his challenge that no one could refute him, (sound familiar?) and left him holding his entrails in his arms. I wonder if Mr. Winburn is even aware of the number of Anglicans, Lutherans, Orthodox et al that also use the 'sign of the cross' as an outward expression of the redemption of Christs' supreme sacrifice?

    BTW, I noticed in the link provided, they don't even allow people to join unless they have the same confession of faith as they do. It seems they don't want to clear up misconceptions about Catholicism but just want to keep their own twisted views and throw them around to each other in that little sick forum of theirs. For someone who hates Catholics so, he sure does obsess about us. To me it's not the lies he tells that are so sad it's that someone could have such hate in his heart over something he knows obviously nothing about. I'm going to pray for him. Well right after I'm done idolizing, and worshiping the Virgin Mary! LOL
     
    #19 Walter, Feb 13, 2014
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  20. Walter

    Walter
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    The people who commit these crimes are scum no matter what denomination they hail from. I hope they get what they deserve in this life & the next.

    These people have no idea of the damage they do to the cause of Christ. Either that or they know and just don't care, in which case Lord have mercy on them!
     
    #20 Walter, Feb 13, 2014
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