The Grecian "little horn" of Daniel 8

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Feb 4, 2011.

  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    THE VISION

    8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.


    THE EXPLANATION OF THE VISION

    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.



    SPELLING IT OUT:

    1. The "he goat" in verse 8 is explicity defined as "the king of Grecia" in verse
    21

    2. The "four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven" in verse 8 is defined as the "four that stood up for it(first king of Grecia)" and are "four kingdoms" that "stand up for THE NATION (Greece) in verse 22.

    NOTE: the "four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven" are the "four kingdoms" of "THE NATION" Greece. Any Greek history book will tell you these four kingdoms are divided by the four directions of the compass from each other into a NORTHERN kingdom, a SOUTHERN kingdom, a EASTERN kingdom and a WESTERN kingdom. In the book of Daniel 11 the Northern and Southern Kingdom are mentioned by name.

    3. Verse 9 explicitly states that the "little horn" arise "out of one of them." Notice the PLURAL "them" (not the singular Rome or singular fourth beast in Daniel 7). "THEM" refers to the "four notable ones" in verse 8 identified as the "four kingdoms" that arise "OUT OF THE NATION" of Greece.

    4. Verse 23 confirms the little horn arises out of "THEIR kingdom" which the PLURAL "their" refers grammatically to the nearest antecedent which is "four kingdoms" in verse 22.


    PARAPHRASE ACCORDING TO COMBINING THE EXPLANATION GIVEN TO DANIEL WITH THE VISION:

    Therefore the he goat [FIRST GREEK KING -v. 21) waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up [OUT OF THE NATION OF GREECE - v.22] four notable ones [/COLOR][FOUR GREEK GENERALS - v. 22] toward the four winds of heaven [FOUR GREEK KINGDOMS - NORTH, SOUTH, EAST and WESTERN division of "THE NATION" - v. 22]
    9 And out of one of them [FOUR GREEK KINGDOMS] came forth a little horn, [A FIERCE KING - v. 23] which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [THE NORTHERN GREEK KINGDOM and its king].


    QUESTION:

    1. do the words "out of" in verse 9 mean "out of" and does the words "out of ONE OF THEM" in verse 9 mean "out of ONE OF THEM"? If these words mean what they say then the little horn arose "OUT OF one of them" the four kingdoms under the four generals of Alexander the Great. Since Rome did not arise "out of" the Grecian kingdom then he cannot be the "little horn" in Daniel 7.

    2. The "little horn" in Daniel seven arises out of TEN ROMAN KINGDOMS but the little horn of Daniel 8 rises "out of" FOUR GRECIAN KINGDOMS:

    Daniel 7:24 - And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them;

    Daniel 8:9 for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn,


    CONCLUSION based upon self-explanation of Biblical text. (1) The little horn of Daniel 8:8-9 is a GRECIAN KING - Antiochus Epiphanes used as a type of the coming antichrist in the fourth kingdom; (2) The little horn of Daniel 7 is the antichrist at the end of the age.
     
    #1 Dr. Walter, Feb 4, 2011
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  2. BobRyan

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    There is NO "grecian little horn" in Dan 8.

    There is the large conspicuous - Grecian horn.

    There are the 4 horns that are all greek. The four divisions of Greece after the death of Alexandar.

    But the Little horn of Dan 8 is one that comes from one of the four points of the compas - not from Greece.

    Rome is the little horn that arises out of the one of the four directions of the compas. In this case - the North.

    8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn(fem) was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous (horns) toward (direction) the four(fem) winds (fem) of heaven(masculine).


    The Little Horn

    9 Out of one (fem) of them(Masculine) came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land.



    Note: This same “four winds of heaven” phrase is actually rendered “four points of the compass” in Dan 11:4 in the NASB with marginal notes that this is “four winds of heaven”.

    From this understanding of the syntax in verses 8-9, it is evident that when the little horn came onto the scene of action, it did not come from
    the Seleucid horn nor from the other three. In the pictorial vision it is simply seen as coming from one of the compass directions. Thus the syntax
    of this statement does not support the contention that the little horn developed from the Selucid hornlkingdom



    Thus it is the same little horn that also persecutes the saints in Dan 7.

    This template fashion in Daniel follows from Dan 2 to 7 to 8 to 9. and even in 10 and 11.

    Obviously.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Feb 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2011
  3. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    There is no further point in discussing this with you. Your conscience is so seared you cannot even use common sense. The grammatical structure of the phrase "toward the four directions" modifies the "four noble ones" in the text of the vision. In the interpretation of the vision NOTHING is mentioned but the four kingdoms because every school kid knows they were divided into four compass directions and yet they were all GRECIAN kingdoms.

    You choose to be ignorant and so be ignorant.


     
  4. Dr. Walter

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    1. The Prepositional phrase "TOWARD the four winds of heaven" has "the four nobles ones" as its grammatical subject not Rome or any land outside of the GRECIAN EMPIRE.

    2. Daniel is explicitly told who are "the four winds of heaven" in verse 22 - "four kingdoms" divided between the "four that rose up IN THE NATION"

    3. Greek History declares that the "four noble ones" (Greek Generals) divided the empire of Alexander into four compass directions (Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western kingdoms).





    Rome was WEST of the NORTHERN GREEK KINGDOM not north.


    Bob gives his interpetation of verse 8-9 but it is different than the inspired interpretation given of verse 8-9 in verses 22-23. Here is the vision followed by inspired interpretation:

    THE VISION


    8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.


    THE INTERPRETATION OF THE VISION

    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom,

    The "four noble ones" in verse 8 are identified as "four stood up for it" in verse 22. The words "toward the four winds" in verse 8 are identified as the "four kingdoms" in verse 22. The words "out of one of them" in verse 9 is identified as the "four kingdom shall stand up OUT OF THE NATION....in the latter time of THEIR kingdom" in verse 22



    Anyone with a little knowledge of Greek history knows those four kings divided the empire into four directions of the compass. The fact that verse 22 says "OUT OF THE NATION" restricts "their kingdom" in verse 23 to the "four" GRECIAN kingdoms which were divided toward the four winds of heaven or four compass directions and were labled "Northern" and "Southern" and "Eastern" and "Western" Grecian kingdoms.


    To any unbiased reader who has any sense of subjectivity and any grasp of grammar and history and allows the vision to be interpreted by the interpretation given in the context, will easily see that Bob is reading into verses 8-9 something directly contradictory to the interpretation given in verses 22-23.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Making stuff up is not serving you the way you seem to have imagined it would.

    The point of debate is not whether Greece divided into four subkingdoms. The point is the correct anticedent for the pronoun in "out of one of them" where the interpretation is strictly observing the way geneder for nouns disambiguates the sentence.

    The "Windw of heaven" phrase lines up perfectly with "out of one of them" in the text itself. (As can easily be seen below)

    8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn(fem) was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous (horns) toward (direction) the four(fem)

    -----------winds (fem) of heaven(masculine).

    9 Out of one (fem) of them(Masculine) came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land.

    Thus "out of one of them" is a direct reference to one of the 4 "winds of heaven" - and the term "four winds of heaven" is used in both Dan 8 and in Dan 11:4 to mean "four points of the compass".

    Thus the little horn of Dan 8 arises out of one of the four points of the compass and the four subkingdoms of the Greek empire also spread out toward the four points of the compass.

    So the Dan 8 little horn - coming out of the North makes it the SAME little horn that Daniel just described in great detail in chapter 7.

    This is pretty obvious.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    You keep coming back to that point as if it is helping your argument. It is not.

    In Dan 8 the text says that the four subdivisions of Greece are spread out toward the four winds of heaven (the four points of the compass) AND that the little horn comes from one of the four winds of heaven (one of the four directions of the compass).

    This is incredibly obvious when you look at the gender information in the text itself.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Nothing in Vs 22 speaks about the little horn comig from Greece. Rather vs 22 we are told that the divided kingdom of Greece into 4 subkingdoms are in fact weaker than what Alexandar built up during the conquering phase for Greece's rise to dominant power.


    No they are not. In Dan 8:8 and in Dan 11:4 the "four winds of heaven" are identified as the "four points of the compass".

    The four subkingdoms of Greece expand outward in the direction of the four points of the comass and the little horn comes FROM one of the four points of the compass.

    Hint - in Dan 11 Rome is clearly the King of the North.



    The words "out of one of them" has to match in gender with the words that preceed it... and in this case there is the perfect match with "winds of heaven" being fem then Masc -- just as "out of one of them" is fem and then Masc.

    The point remains.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Dr. Walter

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    What self-condemnation! The four subdivisions of what country? "of Greece"!
    Where are these GRECIAN subdivisions spread out? "toward the four winds of heaven"! From whence does the little horn come? "the little horn comes from one of the four winds of heaven"! What are the "four winds of heaven"? they are the directions in which the four subdivisions of Greek kingdom cover as territories. Rome never came out of any of the four directions of the Greek subdivided territories noted in every history book under the sun as its "northern kingdom" "southern kingdom" "Eastern kingdom" and "Western kingdom."

    You are admitting to what the inspired interpretation unambigously and explicitly defines the "four winds" to be - "the four kingdoms" of Greece as defined by the four directions the Grecian empire was divided into.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    The four horns = four generals who divided the Grecian Empire "toward the four winds" and thus four compass divisions of Eastern, Northern, Southern and Western.

    A point we have agreed to a zillion times - but each time Walter reads it -- he finds it to be an amazing introduction of a point.


    Now let us look at the inspired interpretation given to Daniel and find who are the four nobel ones.


    B. The Interpretation given for verses 8-9 - Daniel 8:21-23

    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
    22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
    23 And in the latter time of their kingdom,

    1. The rough Goat is the king of Grecia
    2. The great horn is "the first king" of Grecia
    3. The first king of Grecia is "broken"
    4. The "four stood" in the place of the first king of Grecia
    5. The "four kingdoms" arise "up out of the nation" of Greece

    This point is so glarinly obvious that we have only agreed to it about a zillion times so far.

    Thus the 4 conspicuous - the 4 subdivisions of Greece are referenced in Dan 8 as going out toward the "four winds of heaven" and FROM one of those four winds of heaven (called four points of the compass in Dan 11:4) comes the little horn of Dan 8. (Rome from the North as Daniel points out in chapter 11).

    The little horn in Dan 8 is the same as the little horn in Dan 7.

    The Persian and Greek empires are the same as the Persian and Greek empires in Dan 7.

    The persecution of the saints in Dan 8 is the same as the persecution of the saints in Dan 7.

    Incredibly easy to follow.


    They are the "four points of the compas" as Daniel points out again for us in Dan 11:4.

    From which of the four points of the compass is Rome?

    Daniel 11 says it is from the North.


    You just sunk your own argument showing that you need to wrench and bend the "four directions of the compass" into "four directions of the Greek subdivided territories" making total mush out of vs 8 in Dan 8.

    Best to leave it as "four directions of the compass".

    As we find it also in Dan 11:4.

    I believe you would agree to this obvious point in a heart beat if you were not so determined to insert man-made tradition into the text. But that road is a long uphill road requiring that we ignore the inconvenient details in the text itself. I urge you to reconsider - go with the text instead of against it.

    The point remains.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    How does the Daniel define these four kings?

    v. 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones…..”

    vv. 21-22 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it,

    1. The same Great horn is broken in both verses 8 and 21

    2. The “four notable ones” come up “for it” in verse 8

    3. The “four” in verse 21 come up “for it.”

    4. Hence, “the four notable ones” in verse 8 = “the four” in verse 22

    5. Therefore “the four notable ones” and “the four” are what Bob calls the “four horns” or what history calls the “four generals”.



    Now, the “four notable ones” are the “four” as both stood up “for it” the king of Grecia – thus "four horns" or the four generals.

    However, the “four notable ones” (v. 8) or the "four” (v. 22) are not the “four winds” in verse 8 or “the four kingdoms” in verse 22 for several contextual reasons.

    First, in verse 8 “the four winds” are identified as the “four kingdoms that stand up OUT OF THE NATION” in verse 22.

    The “four winds” cannot be the “four” or “four horns” or “the four notable ones” or “four generals” because the preposition “toward” modifies the four direction movements of “the four notable ones” (the four kings or four horns) where their individual “kingdoms” were divided from one another.

    It is out of “one” (fem. Gender – v. 9) of these “four winds” (fem. Gender – v. 8) that are interpreted to be “four kingdoms that stand up OUT OF THE NATION” (v. 22) from which the “little horn” arose! Therefore he arose out of “one” of these kingdoms “out of the nation” of GREECE.

    Neither can “the four” in verse 22 be the same as “the four kingdoms” in verse 22 for the following reasons.

    1. The four Generals stand up – this is immediate in regard to the person of the king when he is broken

    2. The four kingdoms that shall stand up (v. 22) have reference to the "latter time of their kingdoms" in regard to the "nation" (v. 23).



    See Bob’s error! The “four winds” in verse 8 are defined as “the four kingdoms that stand up OUT OF THE NATION” (v. 22) and in their "latter time" (v. 23). The nation is Greece not Rome! The “one” is the Northern Grecian kingdom! There is no problem with the Feminine gender as “one” (feminine – v. 9) = “four winds” (feminine – v. 8) are by interpretation the Northern kingdom among the “four kingdoms” in the “nation” of Greece (v. 22) in its "latter time" verse 23



    Bob rejects Daniels interpretation of “the four winds” in verse 22 as “the four kingdoms that stand up OUT OF THE NATION.” Amazingly he makes this denial while admitting at the same time that the phrase “the four noble ones toward the four winds of heaven” is:


    This is admission that it is the GRECIAN NATION that is divided toward the four winds just as verse 22 demands and therefore "the little horn" arises up out of "one" of these Grecian kingdom divsions - the Northern one!
     
    #10 Dr. Walter, Feb 23, 2011
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