The Heart of Fallen Man

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 18, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    1. This cannot refer to the "new" heart which God gives in regeneration as that heart is created in "true holiness and righteousness" (Ezek. 36:26-27; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10).

    2. Hence, this heart can only be descriptive of the natural birth heart.

    3. Note, he does not say the "JEWISH" heart is deceitful above all things or any other descriptive adjective that would restrict this to a particular class of fallen man but rather "THE heart."

    Skandelon, Van, Winman and other Arminians deny this is the condition of the heart coming with natural birth. Instead of "deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS, and DESPERATELY wicked" they assert that the human heart of fallen man is capable of intrinsic "good" and thus capable of doing "good." And thus the human will of man is not the expression of this kind of human heart but a heart capable of expressing good through the will.

    However, the heart is the seat of motives and that is why God looks upon the heart INSTEAD of the external words or actions and "tries the heart" instead of responding to external words and actions. Simply because the root essence of sin is thoughts, choices, words and actions derived from a WRONG MOTIVE and thus thoughts, choice of words and actions that "come short of THE GLORY OF GOD" as all that we think, say and do is to be for the GLORY OF GOD (1 Cor. 10:31). Thus man is a sinner BY NATURE and that is why he is a sinner by choice and actions. Only a "new" heart can produce inherent good works (good thoughts, choice of words and actions) and that is the consequence of first being "Created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works."

    Hence, in God's sight (not in man's sight) there is NONE GOOD (which speaks of his nature and moral essence) and there is NONE THAT DOETH GOOD (which speaks to his thoughts, choice of words and actions).

    Arminianism is rooted and established upon the fundemental distortion and perversion of this fundemental truth taught from Genesis to Revelation.
     
  2. prophet

    prophet
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ok, I'll bite.
    Deu 6:5-6
    5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
     
  3. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    You were doing good until you got here. Yes, the scriptures say man is evil, there is no man that does good and sins not. But the scriptures do not say that 100% of what man does is evil, and that man is incapable of doing good. In fact, Jesus Christ our Lord himself confirms that men can do good.

    Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Jesus directly says that "evil" men know HOW to do good things. They have the ability to do good. They even have the ability to ask God for the Holy Spirit.

    Nice try though.
     
    #3 Winman, Jan 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2014
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    This has been repudiated so many times it is hard to believe you keep jerking it out of context and keep presenting as a proof text. Here are the reasons AGAIN that your use and interpetation of this text is misleading and purely eisgetical:

    1. He is talking about "good" as descriptive of "things" not "good" as a descriptive of man, his heart or his nature.

    2. He is addressing his own disciples who are believers but still "evil" in regard to their unredeemed flesh and the law of sin still operating within them.

    3. You are pitting a scripture that says NOTHING about the inherent goodness of human nature but rather of "things" external to man against multitudes of clear and explicit denials from Genesis to Revelation that man is inherently good or can do anything inherently good.

    4. You often ignore that many scriptures speak of human "goodness" from a human relative perspective in comparison with other men.

    So yes, "nice try" but a complete perversion of the text you are using and an attempt to overrule multitude of explicit clear texts that in context speak directly to the fallen nature that contradict your attempt to pit scripture against scripture.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    What a laugh, this whole thread is based on a proof text. :laugh:

    My scripture is just as good as yours, maybe better.

    Nonsense, things cannot be good or bad, so Jesus saying evil people can give "good" things to their children shows they are capable of good motives, the thing given can be neither good or evil.

    He is speaking to anybody who will listen. But even if he were speaking to his disciples it would not help you, as they did not have the indwelling Spirit at this time. Either way your view is easily refuted.

    You seem not to understand that Jesus said people without the Spirit can ask for it. Your view is destroyed right there.

    What you call "pitting" scripture is looking at the whole of scripture as we are supposed to do, instead of selectively "cherry picking" scripture to attempt to prove your presuppositions which is not a proper way to read scripture.

    What a laugh, you admit the scriptures speak of human goodness, therefore man is not 100% evil at all times. How willfully blind can you be? :rolleyes:

    I am not perverting scripture whatsoever. Jesus said evil men can do good.

    Get used to it.
     
    #5 Winman, Jan 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2014
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    That is the best descriptive of your response as it self-contradictory. Your responses contain their own repudiation.



    Things have no in herent moral goodness or evil in and of themselves but "things" can be regarded by others as "good" and "evil" from human perspective, usefulness and profit and that is what he is referring to.



    False on both accounts. The immediate context states this sermon is addressed not merely to his "disicples" but the overall context demands it is directed especially to the twelve apostles as their charge.

    Second, all saints from adam to the last have been regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of God. The coming and indwelling on Pentecost was an INSTITUTIONAL indwelling of the new house of God or the congregation of baptized believers and thus was not an INDIVIDUAL indwelling. Every scripture you can quote prior to Pentecost is RESTRICTED to water baptized believers ONLY and the material used by Christ to build the new "house of God" consisting of living stones water baptized and assembled as found in various geographical locations.



    Every scripture that can be found in context where the lost man is being addressed or described denies your interpretation - every single one! You have to cherry pick texts from contexts that do not even deal with fallen man or his nature.

    I have got used to your perversion of God's word abd I hope others have also and should expect nothing but that from you.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    I am not sure why you quote this particular verse or what point you may be using this text to advance or what you expect from me as a response so I will just treat it generally.

    1. This text speaks to our duty not our ability as Deuteronomy 4:29 and 29:4 denies we have such ability.

    2. This text demands a committment of "ALL" thine heart which is impossible for the fallen heart as Jeremiah 17:9 and Deuter. 29:4 state in regard to "THE HEART" of fallen men.
     
  8. prophet

    prophet
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    2
    Deu 6:6
    6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

    COMMAND is the word.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dude, if this was a boxing match, you would be on the mat right now.

    You do not get it, when scripture says no man does good, it is speaking of 100% good. God is the standard, and God is 100% good. Therefore all men "come short" of the glory of God. But the term "come short" itself implies men can do good. It is like shooting an arrow at a target, it falls short, but that does not mean the arrow did not carry some distance. Calvinism perverts what scripture truly teaches, which is that man is capable of good, but all men sin and come short of perfect 100% goodness.

    Things are things, they are not good or evil at all, but only their application is good or evil. You can use a gun to hunt food and feed your family, or you can use it to rob a bank. One use is good, the other is evil.

    You know this as well as I do. I bet even you would argue guns do not shoot people, people shoot people.

    Jesus's disciples were more than the twelve, any person could be a disciple. Many people followed Jesus, not just the twelve.

    How oblivious to truth can you be, why would a regenerated person need to ask for the Holy Spirit? Your position is illogical and foolish.

    Jesus shows that unregenerated men can do good, and they can even ask for the Holy Spirit and be regenerated.

    You yourself know Romans 8:9 says men without the indwelling Spirit are "in the flesh".

    This scripture utterly refutes Total Inability and shows men without the indwelling Holy Spirit have the ability to do good and ask for the Holy Spirit.

    Someday it is going to occur to you that Calvinism is FALSE DOCTRINE.

    Every time someone refutes your many false views you use the same old tired argument that we pulled scripture out of context.

    Again, someday it is going to sink in that Calvinism is FALSE DOCTRINE.

    Until then you will remain self-deceived.
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    That is where you are wrong. God looks at the heart not the external things that men regard "good." The reason God looks at the heart is because God judges good ONLY by the heart motive which is the root of all man chooses to think, say or do rather than mere manifest choices. So you look at sin differently than God looks at sin and you define sin differently than God defines sin. You deny man is a sinner BY NATURE (heart) whereas scripture teaches man is a sinner BY NATURE and that is why he is a sinner by choice and actions.

    This explains why your definition of good is purely SUPERFICIAL. God's word claims that if you sin in ONE POINT you sin in ALL POINTS because the root of all sin is the same - motive! If the motive is wrong then that motive violates every point of the Law because the law requires the SAME MOTIVE behind all choices of thoughts, words and actions to be GOOD. That is why a man must be "CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" as good works cannot originate from an evil heart, meaning a heart which operates according to any other motive than THE GLORY OF GOD.

    Go think about what I have said very carefully and prayerfully before responding because you are already flattened out on the matt completely knocked out but you simply don't know it.
     
  11. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's all you've got, MOUTH.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    I will gladly Let the reader determine who is only got mouth according to the content of the responses!
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    :thumbsup::thumbsup:Yes everytime without fail....:love2::wavey:
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    Winman wins hands down....:laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    They were responsible to do this...they said they would, but failed...

    so God promised Divine enablement;
    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
     
  16. prophet

    prophet
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,037
    Likes Received:
    2
    Timing is everything.
    Deu 30:3-6
    3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.
    4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
    5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
    6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    Yes, ultimately this is a national promise when God will regenerate "all Israel" as a nation in one day at the second advent (Rom. 11:25-28). However, this is also the terms of the "everlasting covenant" of salvation (Heb. 13:20) or the "new covenant" (Heb. 8, 10; Ezek. 36:26-27; Jer. 31:31) that is applied to each INDIVIDUAL elect between Genesis and the second advent for which Nicodemus was rebuked for not recognizing as an Old Testament teaching and reality with every child of God (Jn. 3:3-11). Whether God saves an entire "elect" nation or an individual it is according to the very same gospel salvation from Genesis to Revelation. There is no other salvation than that which saved Abraham (Rom. 4:12,16,21-25) before the cross or you after the cross as there is "no other gospel" (Gal. 1:8-9 with Gal. 3:6-8).
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    Back to the OP

    1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

    Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify -ourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    Ps 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The human heart IS sinful and the source of all sin:

    Jer. 17:9 The heart IS deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    Mt. 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The heart is the seat of our MOTIVES and we are sinners BY NATURE because our heart OPERATES BY EVIL MOTIVES - the Law of Sin!

    Hence, out of our unregenerated hearts comes NOTHING GOOD because the motive IS evil. That is why there IS NONE GOOD because the tree, root, heart IS evil. That is why there is NONE THAT DOETH GOOD because the tree, root, heart IS evil.

    The only right motive is "the glory of God" for all that you CHOOSE to think, say and do and "all have sinned and COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD" becuase their heart operates under the "law of sin" and IS evil.

    This is why regeneration or being "created in Christ Jesus" or given a NEW heart is the only way "unto good works" - Eph. 2:10

    Arminianism claims that God can enable an "evil" heart to operate by the right motive which is oxymoronic unless the heart itself is changed from "evil" to "good." That is why God must "give" a new heart in order for man to hear, see and perceive good. Jesus repeatedly says "make the tree good" before the fruits can be good:

    Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

    Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    This is the New Covenant salvation as spelled out in Jeremiah 31:33-34 and applied to New Testament Saints in Hebrews 8 and 10 as the "everlasting covenant" - Heb. 13:20 applicable to all saints in all ages (Acts 10:43; Rom. 4:1-25; Gal. 3:6-8).
     
  19. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Repeating error does not make it correct. Jesus said unregenerate men have the ability to do good, and they can even ask for the Holy Spirit.

    Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Jesus did not teach the false doctrine of Total Inability, he taught that "evil" men can do good and even ask for the Holy Spirit.
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,108
    Likes Received:
    205
    Then why do you keep doing it over and over and over and over again?????? And again you do it in this post!!


    You have yet to answer the contextual based evidences that your application of this text is wrong! Why? Because you cannot answer and so like a parrot you have no other options but repent or repeat but never to explain.


    1. "good" modifies "gift" not "ye"

    2. Jesus is speaking of gifts from the perspective of men and how they regard things not how God regards things. He did not say God says there are "good things" but this is in perspective from "ye" not God.

    3. "How" speaks of ability to give things not the nature of the giver.

    4. He is addressing born again by the Spirit of God professing disciples, with special emphasis toward the apostles as their charge to the new office. Even you cannot deny that Old Testament saints had the Spirit come "upon" them and work "in" them at times and there is no evidence the Spirit was not "upon" them and working "in" them at this time.

    5. Your interpetation pits this scripture against multitudes of OLD TESTAMENT scriptures that deny your intepretation.

    He most certainly did teach "total inability" when he said "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME"

    1. He did not say "no JEW" but "man"

    2. He did not exclude ANY man.

    3. The "except" clause is necessary because of universal inability to come or else there would be no need of an "except" clause.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...