The Heart of Fatal Error

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Aug 29, 2007.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    I suppose that we all feel the other is often wrong, and at the heart of the others argument lays a fatal error. I would like to explore these areas on this thread. I will start it off by posting what I believe well may be the greatest theological error I have came across. If you believe that fundamental error starts at another point, feel free to share it with the list. This OP is not just about what I believe is fundamental error, but what each one of you feel is the basis for the error you find in other systems of thought. Again, we are looking for fundamental error, not just subsequent doctrines we do not agree with.

    I believe that one of the most fundamental areas of error lies in the notion that if God foreknows, the outcome is predetermined and as such God alone is the cause. The end of this belief can none other than fatalistic determination, with God ending up the author of all good and evil as the sole cause of both.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Cutter

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    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

    Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
     
  3. J. Jump

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    I think the greatest fundamental error is a misunderstanding of Genesis 1 & 2. This is the foundation of all of Scripture. If you build on a bad foundation you get skewed results.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Cutter - is "satan the servant of God" doing God's bidding?

    Does God regard both Hitler and Luther as His faithful servants fulfilling His every command in your view?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

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    I agree with HP and J Jump in terms of what they list as foundational errors that LEAD to many other errors.

    Yet I would also argue that in heaven you will find some former Darwinists and Calvinists - doctrinally corrected the moment they saw Jesus.
     
  6. Cutter

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    Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God *: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
    7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
    8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered * my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
    9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
    10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
    11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse * thee to thy face.
    12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

    Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
     
    #6 Cutter, Aug 29, 2007
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  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Cutter, what is your straight answer to BR? Quoting Scripture that was in one context is not an answer to the question BR posed on this list.

    I am NOT putting words into your mouth with the following, but rather am trying to draw conclusions based upon what you have given us so far. If I am gathering what you say from the Scriptures you posted, God is the author of all evil and good. He is as evil a god as He is a Good, Just, Holy, God. Evil and good are just the two faces of the same god.
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Can you be a bit more specific? Are there particular verses prone to misinterpretation that you see? Feel free to share them if you so desire.
     
  9. charles_creech78

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    Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Isa 45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isa 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.Pr 14:12 There is a way which SEEMeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Pr 16:25 There is a way that SEEMeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ec 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
     
    #9 charles_creech78, Aug 30, 2007
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  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: It is the interpretation of these passages that we are interested in in discussion and debate. Tell us what they say to you and why. :)
     
  11. charles_creech78

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    Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the POTTER's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our POTTER; and we all are the work of thy hand.
     
  12. Cutter

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    Satan only has the power allocated unto him that comes from God. He has to have God's permission to act as in Job. He is under God. He works his own evil according to his own will, but within the parameters of what God permits. God is in complete and total control over everything, even Satan. Remember what the response was of Legion to Christ, "Art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"
    God is Perfect, Holy, and Just, but He did create everything, including evil in the form of the devil and his followers. It was the choice of Satan to rebel. In rebelling he separated himself from God, but he still has to answer to Him, because God the Father is God and beside Him there is none other.
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You cannot have it both ways. Either God is in complete control or the devil works his own evil. Which is it?




    HP: Choice requires that one select from two or more alternatives. If there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, choice is impossible to conceive of. Only as two or more possible consequents are possible given one antecedent, is choice possible.

    If God created evil as you say, God is the only one with a choice, if even He has a choice. You cannot say Stan has a choice when you say that God necessitates it. That is a clear contradiction of terms.

    To say that Satan has to answer to God for something you say God necessitates makes a mockery out of justice. Whoever is the responsible party, whoever necessitates the outcome is the only one to be held accountable.
     
  14. Cutter

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    One question.
    Is God Omnipotent?
     
  15. J. Jump

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    I could but we've already hashed those things out before and probably several times, so there is no need to ruffle the feathers of those that are dead set on holding to church tradition despite what the Scriptures say. Let's just let them enjoy the time that they have.
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: If you are asking if God is All-Powerful, I would say yes, but qualify it with the following. In His Omnipotence, God chose to allow for free moral agents to be the cause of their intents, and as such be responsible for them. It is not that we are greater than God, for God can stop our plans and intents any time He so chooses, but God will not blame or praise man for failing to do, or doing that which he could not otherwise avoid. If God necessitates anything, He alone is the responsible party.

    God blames and praises man for his intents. This is proof that we have been granted the freedom by God to form our intents, to be a first cause of them, and as such rightfully held accountable for them.

    In summary, God being Omnipotent in no way negates the fact that He allows for freedom of choice and that we are indeed the first cause of our moral intents, and as such rightfully blamed or praised for our intents and subsequent actions. God, being Omnipotent, can indeed grant freedom to whatever creatures He so desires, just as He has done.

    If you believe that an Omnipotent God create a creature of His making to act freely without force or coercion in the things He holds them morally responsible for, show us why you withhold from an Omnipotent God the ability to do that.

    Remember, God is just not All-Powerful and Omnipotent, He is Fair, Just, Righteous, and Holy as well.
     
  17. charles_creech78

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    Ge 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Ge 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Ge 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons Ge 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. Ge 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? Ge 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Ge 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? Ge 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. Ge 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Ge 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Job 1:9 Then SATAN answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?Job 2:4 And SATAN answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So SATAN went forth from the presence of the LORD. Look to me that God has all the power to say yes and to say no to satan. Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. Job 42:13 He had also seven sons and three daughters. Job 42:16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations Job 42:17 So Job died, being old and full of days .
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Yes, that is indeed the truth. We must be in great agreement.:thumbs:
     
  19. charles_creech78

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    Which the LORD had MADE.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    So that is your answer?

    Will you also add

    "Well done thou good and faithful servant - enter into the Joy of your Lord" behind Hitler's name as with Luther?

    Are you really so ready to call "evil good"??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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