The hidden dangers of Calvinism

Define choice...

 

"John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

What does this famous verse teach about fallen man's ability to choose Christ? The answer, simply, is nothing. The argument used by non-Reformed people is that the text teaches that everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ. A careful look at the text reveals, however, that it teaches nothing of the kind. What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man's natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe.

Some may reply, "All right. The text does not explicitly teach that fallen men have the ability to choose Christ without being reborn first, but it certainly implies that." I am not willing to grant that the text even implies such a thing.

. . .We conclude that fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ." ---R. C. Sproul

 

Former Sproul associate Don Kistler sounds eerily similar to Spurgeon's ultra-Calvinistic gadflies, misquoting the exact same scripture in an attempt to prevent children from praying to the Lord:
“the prayer of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,” and it is a sin to call God their Father when He is not their Father. It is a lie."

 

Nope, the text teaches that whosoever believeth, not believes.

The devils believe and tremble, devils can't get saved.

God chose the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them which believe.

 

Yep, the calvinists forget the invitation for all that are heavy laden to come to Jesus includes everyone that is a sinner.

 

Believing is not a choice? It is forced?

Have you read Romans 1?

This is circular reasoning. If I walk into a building and say "whoever comes outside will get $100" of course only those who come outside will get the $100! This does not mean "whoever" or "whosoever" couldn't receive the cash!

 

Not quite, the non-elect could have chosen Christ and remain that way until they choose Christ. You seem to damn them for eternity and allow them no chance to choose Christ.

The danger here is you place yourself on the Throne.

Ephesians 1:4 does a pretty good job if you believe the Bible and not a man-made doctrine.

Please tell us how anyone was ever holy and blameless before Him in love that was yet to choose Christ???

The text shows only those who are in him can be seen that way, so to say the elect are the chosen is gross error in the light/darkness that only the elect will be saved and the non-elect can never be saved.

You're twisting Scripture, again.

This passage shows the Omniscience of God, not His choosing Jacob over Esau.

Jacob was chosen and became elect due to his repentence and his name and blessing was changed. Esau sold his birthright to his flesh and thought his position as firstborn held precedence over repentence. Jews who reject Christ are God's chosen people, but this passage teaches against their being born to their father Abraham, and they need to be born again to the Father. It shows us all equally under the power of sin unto death and the need for following the actions of the trickster in crying out to the Lord for salvation!:godisgood:

It explicitly speaks against birthright as a means of salvation.

Or do you care to argue against solid Bible doctrine?:tonofbricks:

 

As a Calvinist, I can assert that I haven't forgotten this at all. All sinners are not only invited to come; they are commanded to come. And to fail to come is disobedience to the truth.

This isn't a distinction at all. The old way of saying "believes" is "believeth" in the context.

Right, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that their faith is not submissive faith, or saving faith.

Yes indeed. It is a wonderful message by which God saves people. It is utterly humiliating for us to recognize that we are completely without hope unless God unilaterally and sovereignly moves in us to draw us to faith and salvation. This is why Calvinist soteriology is most biblical ... it removes any basis for human pride, and exalts only God.

 

And this is exactly the point. When God says, "Whosoever believes will be saved," only those who believe will be saved. It does not mean that "whoever" or "whosoever" couldn't be saved. They can't be saved because they won't believe. The message is foolishness to them.

 

Nice post Jerome. And I noticed that the double-post bug bit you.

 

Whosoever believes

It is foolishness to those who are perishing (the wise and the learn) who try to find away around the truth that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

They have the key to knowledge and they themselves did not enter and they are hindering those from entering

1 Corinthians 1:18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[Isaiah 29:14 ]

What is amazing to me How ppl lean on their own understanding than just trusting in the Lord and His word.

 

That is virtually incoherent, Psalms. You should proof read more closely to help us to understand what you are trying to say.

 

OK.

My objection is to what the onlookers see when they witness the very same thing here on the BB that was going on in the Corinthian Church. I guess (on the bright side) they see that we are human.

Ideally we should be able to discuss/debate these issues without the poor witness of arguments and name calling.

I am and have been guilty, its an easy pit to fall into.

HankD

 

I agree and as I have been guilty, I am trying to be more civil. I am concerned about the perceptions of onlookers up to a point, but there's only so much that can be done about it. Some people are going to find differences between Christians as some kind of proof of their own skepticism, no matter how civil the debate is. Quite frankly, I don't like to debate with civility. By nature I'm a bare-knuckles type of guy, both literally and figuratively.

My co-workers used to call me the "Killer Bee" because I would debate them with such vigor. Civlility is a discipline for me, and I envy those that can maintain a calm demeanor no matter what insult is being hurled at them.

 

Now you're stuck with explaining the differences between willful disobedience and disobedience due to ignorance.

Not exactly, take the context: Nicodemus already knew that Jesus came from God and did miracles only God could do, he just hadn't yet realized that Jesus is God and what Jesus would do for him that no other man could do.

You're taking it as a general comment when it was directed to Nicodemus personally.

Interesting, I thought all calvinists say that those who aren't "elect" have NO faith? But these devils believe and tremble knowing their destruction is at hand, they are the ones who left their first estate.

The essence of belief is not a cognitive ability but a complete trusting in the finished workof Calvary as to wholeheartedly cast onesself on Christ.

The problem is you're trying to completely write off the will of man having to be broken to come to saving knowledge. Inadvertantly you would be in danger of writing off Holy Ghost intervention to bring a pricking of the heart so a man could see his need and trust Jesus.

Man exalts himself by foolish pride and ultimately places himself above the throne of God. Until he is brought under conviction due to preaching against sin and according to salvation through Christ no man could see the need and there would but absolutely NO need for missions.

Another danger of calvinism exposed.

God isn't exalted by His programming people to be saved, but rather when a man's will has been turned over to the Lord and away from sin.

Jesus said he had finished the work in John 17 and glorified the Father. Any man who places trust in the work of Christ ultimtely glorifies the Father. This incorporates that man's will, though now broken, yet in God's hands and under His command.

If this weren't the case you could never even mentioned man being brought under subjection. Subjection requires submissiveness of the will.:sleeping_2:

 

What am I stuck with? Ultimately, the reason for disobedience is irrelevant.

No, I am taking it as a general statement of truth. Your distinction is absurd, and has no biblical basis whatsoever.

Goes to show you have no idea what you are talking about. Everyone has faith. Some have saving faith and others do not.

Yes, indeed.

No, I am not. You aren't reading closely.

Nope, I think "pricking" is way too understated for what the Bible says.

I agree until your last phrase, which seems to be missing something. The reason for missions is to preach the word so that man will see his need.

Yes, excellently said.

Again, well said.

Yes, indeed.

As a side note, I am always humored by things like this when people pretend they are refuting Calvinism but state exactly what Calvinism espouses. Kind of goes to show what I have long said, that most people have no idea what they are talking about because 1) they do not know the Bible, and 2) they do not understand Calvinism.

 

This is not a biblical distinction. The word group pistis/pisteuo as a verb is translated believe and as a noun is translated faith.

The NT does not make this distinction. The prepositions used are not consistent in the NT, showing that there is more fluidity in them than statements like this make clear.

 

Irrelevant? Wow...

 

Yes, when it comes to separation from God for disobedience, the reason is irrelevant. You are still separated from God for disobedience. Why is that shocking to you?

The wages of sin is death. It doesn't discriminate between causes of sin, or types of sin. The good news is that Jesus died for it all.