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The Holy Father visits Spain

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, May 4, 2003.

  1. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter New Member

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    No wonder your theology works in your mind, you pick and choose what you want and don't want. The church is the congregation of believers in Christ. As long as there are believers in Christ, it hasn't failed. The failure of Rome has no bearing on Christ.
     
  2. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    "No wonder your theology works in your mind, you pick and choose what you want and don't want. The church is the congregation of believers in Christ. As long as there are believers in Christ, it hasn't failed. The failure of Rome has no bearing on Christ. "

    I picked and choose nothing. What I said fits quite well with what Jesus said accept (from your perspective) that it was a Catholic that said it. Jesus made no parrellel with the rest of the text and said something that was contrary to it "peg shall give way" vs. "the gates of hell shall not prevail". So it is you that picks and chooses. Of course that is common in multi-denominational protestantism.

    "The failure of Rome has no bearing on Christ"

    Matthew 7:25-26
    "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been FOUNDED ON THE ROCK" Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
    "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

    Jesus is the Rock. Peter is also the Rock (just as apostles and prophets are the foundation (eph 2:20 and Jesus is the foundation 1 Cor 3:11). Better act now.


    Blessings

    [ May 07, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
     
  3. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Young Nun's Testimony Before Pope and Spanish Youth

    Sister Ruth de Jesús Tells of Her Vocation


    MADRID, Spain, MAY 6, 2003 (Zenit.org) - At John Paul II's meeting Saturday night with almost 1 million youths at the Cuatro Vientos air base, a young nun's testimony wrung applause and tears from the audience.

    Here is the testimony of Sister Ruth de Jesús, of the Sisters of the Company of the Cross. The congregation's founder, Ángela de la Cruz, was canonized Sunday.

    * * *

    Dear Holy Father:

    I am Sister Ruth de Jesús. I am 28 years old. I belong to the Sisters of the Company of the Cross, founded by Blessed Ángela de la Cruz, whom Your Holiness will canonize tomorrow. I entered when I was 20.

    Although I am a junior with temporary vows, I am committed to Jesus forever with an undivided love, in a life of prayer and service to the poorest, the sick and the abandoned in their own homes. I wash their clothes, clean their homes, cook their food, dress their sores, and watch over them at night. Most important of all, I give them all the love they need, because Jesus gives it to me in prayer. God is love, and I return his love by loving the poor, giving them my youth and my whole life.

    Before entering the institute, I led a normal life. I liked music, beautiful things, art, friendship, adventure. I often dreamed about my future, but one day I saw two Sisters on the street who caught my attention because of their recollection, quick step and peaceful look. They were young like me. I felt empty and in my inner self I heard a voice that said to me: "What are you doing with your life?" I wanted to justify myself: "I study, get good grades, I have many friends." I stared at the Sisters until they disappeared from view and wondered: Who are they? Where are they going?

    Like Nicodemus, I invited Jesus into the night of my anxious heart and in prayer, I began to talk with him. With him, I felt the call of so many brothers who were asking me for my time, my youth, the love I had received from the Lord. And I searched, and found the woman who, together with Mary, was closest to the cross of Jesus -- Sister Ángela de la Cruz. She had so configured herself to Jesus' cross that she became love for the suffering poor. She captivated me and I wanted to be one of hers. And here I am, Holiness, conscious of what I have left behind.

    I have left everything that the young people have who are with us this evening: freedom, money, perhaps a brilliant future, human love, perhaps some children. I have left it all for Jesus Christ, who captured by heart to make the love of God present to the weakest, in my poor nature of clay.

    I must confess, Holiness, that I am very happy and that I wouldn't change my life for anything or anyone. I live in the confidence of the one who called me to be a witness and who supports me with his grace.

    Thank you, Holy Father, for your dedicated life, without reservations, as a faithful witness of the Gospel, for strengthening our faith, for quickening our hope, and for opening our heart to the ardent love of the one who knows how to lose his life so that others may gain it.

    Thank you, Holy Father, for your life, which has marked many of us.

    Thank you for coming to tell us, the young people of Spain, that the world needs living witnesses of the Gospel; that each one of us can be one of those courageous persons who dare to construct the new civilization of love, because what we do not do for the poor, contemplating in them the face of Christ, will remain undone.

    Thank you again, Holy Father.
     
  4. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Hello Brother Curtis --

    Interesting statement. You admit that you claim no such thing as infallibility for your particular assembly.

    HOW then do you KNOW that what you are being taught is the correct INTERPRETATION of what our Lord taught?

    If you don't, then how can you sleep easy on this? What keeps you from being seriously concerned that perhaps you are being led into soul-damning error?

    We, on the other hand, as Catholics, East and West, have a sure promise, which states, as you have been told many times before, that the apostles would be led into all truth and the Church would be kept from error.

    If you ever figure out that personal sins and pecabilities are different from doctrinal errors, perhaps you will not be laughing at us the next time you question the truth of the Catholic Faith.

    Anyhow, hope you are well. Ya sounded a bit beat the last time we talked.

    Brother Ed
     
  5. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    "HOW then do you KNOW that what you are being taught is the correct INTERPRETATION of what our Lord taught?"

    Yes, he is 100% certain he is saved but he is not certain that his doctrine of OSAS is correct so so it would seem illogical that he can be 100% certain he is saved.
     
  6. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    Holy Father? Matthew 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
     
  7. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Well if it is to be taken as a strict prohibition against calling someone father then I am sure you have called your male paternal parent Dad. Though it does seem odd that in the ten commandments God would tell us to honor our FATHER and mother, causing mankind to get in this nasty habbit before slamming the door shut on it a few thousand years later. Of course Paul kindof violated your usage of it also:

    1 Corinthians 4:15
    For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

    This even in a spiritual sense, as spiritual father.

    Better go with Matt 23:9 in terms of father with regard to the ultimate source of all your benefits. I am sure you will find that this explanation fits quite nicely with the context and doesn't cause verses to start slugging it out with eachother. Thanks for raising this issue but it is a bit on the weak side.

    Blessings
     
  8. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Holy Father? Matthew 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    hyperbole \h-per-be-()le\ n : extravagant exaggeration used as a figure of speech

    (C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

    "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." (St. Paul, 1 Cor 4:15)
     
  9. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    This passage is not talking about your dad. If it was it would contradict Exodus 20:12 and we all know that the Bible does not contradict itself. If you read the verses surrounding this verse, you will see that it is taking about calling someone father in place of the Holy Father, God.
     
  10. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    If you read the verses surrounding this verse

    And if you read the epistles surrounding this verse (canonical context), you'll recognize that Jesus is speaking in hyperbole for St. Paul became a spiritual father through the Gospel, as he himself states explicitly.

    Here is another example of Jesus employing hyperbole: "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell" (Mt 5:30).
     
  11. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    Where does it say that Paul was a holy father?
     
  12. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    John Paul II's Address to Youth in Madrid

    "It Is Worthwhile Dedicating Oneself to the Cause of Christ"


    VATICAN CITY, MAY 8, 2003 (Zenit.org) - Here is a translation of the address John Paul II gave at the Cuatro Vientos air base in Madrid, Spain, last Saturday. More than 700,000 young people were on hand.

    * * *

    Dear Young People, Dear Friends:

    I am back with you again. We know one another from previous meetings, such as the one in Toronto, Canada. I embrace each one of you.

    1. I greet you affectionately, young people of Madrid and Spain! Many of you have come from far away, from all the dioceses and regions of the country, and from America and other countries of the world. I am deeply touched by your warm and cordial welcome. I confess to you that I have been looking forward very much to this meeting with you.

    I greet you and I repeat to you the same words I used when I addressed the young people in Santiago Bernabéu Stadium during my first visit to Spain more than 20 years ago: "You are the hope of the Church and of society ... I continue to believe in young people, in you" (November 3, 1982, n. 1).

    I embrace you with great affection, and with you, I also greet the bishops, priests and other pastoral collaborators who accompany you on your journey of faith.

    I am grateful for the presence of Their Royal Highnesses, the Prince of Asturias, the Duke and Duchess of Lugo, and the Duke and Duchess of Palma, as well as the Authorities of the Spanish Government.

    I would also like to thank Archbishop Braulio Rodríguez, president of the Episcopal Commission of the Lay Apostolate, and the young people, Margarita and José, for their cordial words of welcome on behalf of everyone here. I greet Archbishop Manuel Estepa, Military Ordinary, and the Military Authorities who are giving us hospitality at this Air Base.

    2. Dear young people, the grace of God must shine forth in your lives, as it shone in Mary, full of grace.

    At this Vigil you have fittingly wished to meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary, putting into practice the ancient spiritual maxim: "To Jesus through Mary." Undoubtedly, in the Rosary we learn from Mary to contemplate the beauty of the face of Christ, and to feel the depth of his love. As we begin this prayer, therefore, let us turn our gaze to the Mother of the Lord and ask her to guide us to her Son Jesus:

    "Queen of Heaven, rejoice!
    For Christ whom you deserved to bear in your womb has risen! Alleluia!".

    [After the proclamation of the Mysteries of the Rosary and the testimonies of five teen-agers, the Holy Father addressed the young people, calling them to be fearless disciples of Jesus as they live his message of hope each day. Here is a translation of the Pope's Address, given in Spanish.]

    1. Led by the hand of the Virgin Mary and accompanied by the example and intercession of the new Saints, we have revisited in prayer several moments in the life of Jesus.

    Indeed, in its simplicity and depth the Rosary is a true compendium of the Gospel and leads to the very heart of the Christian message: "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (Jn 3:16).

    Mary, in addition to being our Mother who is close, discreet and understanding, is the best Teacher for achieving knowledge of the truth through contemplation. The drama of contemporary culture is the lack of interiority, the absence of contemplation. Without interiority culture has no content; it is like a body that has not yet found its soul. What can humanity do without interiority? Unfortunately, we know the answer very well. When the contemplative spirit is missing, life is not protected and all that is human is denigrated. Without interiority, modern man puts his own integrity at risk.

    Never separate action from contemplation

    2. Dear young people, I invite you to be part of the "School of the Virgin Mary." She is the incomparable model of contemplation and wonderful example of fruitful, joyful, and enriching interiority. She will teach you never to separate action from contemplation, so as to contribute to making a great dream come true: the birth of the new Europe in the spirit. A Europe that is faithful to its Christian roots, not closed in on itself but open to dialogue and collaboration with the other peoples of the earth; a Europe aware that it is called to be the beacon of civilization and an incentive to progress for the world, determined to combine its efforts and its creativity to serve peace and solidarity among peoples.

    "Never let yourselves be discouraged by evil'

    3. Beloved young people, you know well how concerned I am for peace in the world. The spiral of violence, terrorism, and war still causes hatred and death, even in our day. Peace, as we know, is first of all a gift from on High for which we must constantly ask and which, furthermore, we must all build together by means of a profound inner conversion. Consequently, today I want to exhort you to work to build peace and be artisans of peace. Respond to blind violence and inhuman hatred with the fascinating power of love. Overcome enmity with the force of forgiveness. Keep far away from any form of exasperated nationalism, racism, and intolerance. Witness with your life that ideas are not imposed but proposed. Never let yourselves be discouraged by evil! For this you will need the help of prayer and the consolation that is born from an intimate friendship with Christ. Only in this way, living the experience of God's love and radiating Gospel fellowship, will you be able to be the builders of a better world, genuine peaceful and peacemaking men and women.

    Do not be afraid to talk about Christ

    4. Tomorrow I will have the joy of canonizing five new Saints, sons and daughters of this noble Nation and of this Church. They "were young like you, full of energy, joy, and love of life. Their encounter with Christ transformed their lives. ... Thus, they were enabled to attract other young people, their friends, and to create associations for prayer, evangelization, and charity which still endure" (Message to the Spanish Bishops on the occasion of the Holy Father's Apostolic Visit, n. 4).

    Dear young people, go forward with confidence to meet Jesus! And like the new Saints, do not be afraid to talk about him! For Christ is the true answer to all questions about man and his destiny. You, young people, must become the apostles of your peers. I know well that this is not easy. You will often be tempted to say like the Prophet Jeremiah: "Ah, Lord God! Behold, I do not know how to speak, for I am only a youth" (Jer 1:6). Do not be disheartened for you are not alone: the Lord will always accompany you, with his grace and the gift of his Spirit.

    "It is worthwhile to give one's life for the Gospel"

    5. The Lord's faithful presence makes you capable of taking on the commitment of the new evangelization, to which all the Church's children are called. It is a task for all. Lay people play a lead role in it, especially husbands and wives and Christian families; nevertheless, today evangelization urgently needs priests and consecrated persons. This is why I want to say to each one of you, young people: if you hear the call of God that says to you: "Follow me!" (Mk 2:14; Lk 5:27), do not silence his call. Be generous, respond like Mary, offering God the joyful "yes" of yourself and your life.

    I give you my own witness: I was ordained a priest when I was 26 years old. Fifty-six years have passed since then. So how old is the Pope? Almost 83! A young man of 83! Looking back and remembering those years of my life, I can assure you that it is worthwhile dedicating oneself to the cause of Christ and, out of love for him, devoting oneself to serving humanity. It is worthwhile to give one's life for the Gospel and for one's brothers and sisters! How many hours are there still to go until midnight? Three hours. Just three hours until midnight and then comes morning.

    6. To conclude, I would like to call on Mary, the shining star that announces the Sun that is born from on High, Jesus Christ:

    Hail, Mary, full of grace!
    This evening I pray to you for the youth of Spain,
    young people full of dreams and hopes.
    They are the dawn watchmen,
    the people of the beatitudes;
    they are the living hope of the Church and of the Pope.
    Holy Mary, Mother of the young,
    intercede so that they may be witnesses of the Risen Christ,
    humble and courageous apostles of the third millennium,
    generous heralds of the Gospel.
    Holy Mary, Immaculate Virgin,
    pray with us,
    pray for us. Amen.
     
  13. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

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    (Mat 23:8-10 NIV) "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. {9} And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. {10} Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.

    So when I called my Dad 'Dad', I was sinning. When I raised my hand in 2nd grade and said, "teacher teacher!" I was sinning. And down at Beth El Synagogue, when they call their pastor 'Rabbi' they are sinning too. It's all-so-clear to me now.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    WHO do Catholics THINK "The Holy Father" is??

    Isnt it amazing that when you think "Catholic" the first thing you must do is "put scripture On Hold"??

    For Bible believing Christians "THE Holy Father" is the one that Christ identified as "Holy Father".

    Surely we can all agree to that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    Carson Weber:

    Are you saying that since the pope says it, it is. What happened to God's word?

    Jude:

    The problem I see here is, your not using the bible, the King James Bible says Master not teacher. Master meaning someone that is set higher than God.

    BTW, if this is how everything is clear
    I have soom swamp land in Florida for sale.
     
  16. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    For Bible believing Christians "THE Holy Father" is the one that Christ identified as "Holy Father".

    Surely we can all agree to that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]So Bob, I take it that you are against also calling any man Holy One since that title is used for God.

    Proverbs 9:10
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
    And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.


    Proverbs 30:3
    Neither have I learned wisdom,
    Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy One.


    Only problem is, sometimes it is used for men also. i.e. Psalms 106:16
    When they became envious of Moses in the camp,
    And of Aaron, the holy one of the LORD,


    And the bible speaks of holy men. For instance:

    Kings 4:9
    She said to her husband, "Behold now, I perceive that this is a holy man of God passing by us continually.


    Mark


    Mark 6:20
    for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed; but he used to enjoy listening to him.


    Now if these holy men were fathers, it would not seem to me to be blasphemous to call them holy fathers, with holy as an adjective discribing there dedication to God. Sorry, once again your arguements have no depth. Just surficial handwaving based on bias against the truth.

    Blessings though.
     
  17. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Are you saying that since the pope says it, it is. What happened to God's word?

    "the pope says it, it is" is quite a bit enigmatic. What in the world are you talking about?

    God's Word is still alive and being preached by His Church.

    The problem I see here is, your not using the bible, the King James Bible says Master not teacher.

    So, everyone before 1611 wasn't using the Bible?
     
  18. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    Curious on what you call "his church." Body of believers, right.?

    Everyone before 1611 were not as blessed as we are today. Today we can hold God's infallible, perfect word in our hands, in our language!


    From Dr. Gipp, "The Answer Book."

    Question #13

    The overwhelming majority of Bible manuscripts existent throughout history have been the text found in Antioch. They have always been available in some form, either in copies of the original Greek, or the old Latin of 150 AD, (NOT to be confused with Jerome's corrupt "Vulgate") or the Syrian Peshetto of 157 AD.
    That it would be difficult indeed to gather all of these sources together and place them in the hands of the common man gives credence to God's reasoning for the collation and translation of the King James Bible.
     
  19. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Curious on what you call "his church." Body of believers, right.

    Yes, you are correct. The Church is a body of believers, and being a body, it is visible and sensible. You can point to the Catholic Church and say: "There! There is the Church."

    Your conception of ecclesia misses the full import of the body metaphor. For you, the Church is more of a soul: an invisible communion of true believers. When you say that the Church is a body, you're giving lip service to a concept that desires more credence than you allow for.

    "It is an easier thing for the sun to be quenched, than for the church to be made invisible" (St. John Chrysostom).

    Everyone before 1611 were not as blessed as we are today. Today we can hold God's infallible, perfect word in our hands, in our language!

    So God waited until 16 centuries after the Ascension before he gave us the real Bible? Yeah right! How's the weather in la-la land right now? La, la, la, la..
     
  20. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    What, the brick building?



    Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was the catholic church that stopped God's word from reaching the common people. Chained, I believe it was. Thank God for men like Erasmus and Luther that defiled the catholic church.
     
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