The Holy Life

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by th1bill, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Jer 7:3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
    Jer 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
    Jer 7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
    Jer 7:6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
    Jer 7:7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
    Jer 7:8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

    In last Sunday´s Scripture Lesson the question was asked that is, by and large, ignored in this world today, ¨How much of your daily lifestyle is shaped by popular culture and how much is influenced by God´s Word?¨

    The Grumpy Old Men´s Class did run 7 to 10 when I assumed the privilege of teaching it, for the want of a willing teacher. Because of my teaching the possibility of living a ¨Holy Life,¨ (a life devoted to the service of God. Rom. 12:1) combined with problems that occur in any Church Family with a very Biblical Pastor, two members left the class and the fellowship of the Church. Others have left for an assortment of reasons until the class is now made up of 3 to 5 members on any given Sunday. And here we are now striving to build the LORD´s Church Family with, hopefully, dedicated Christ Followers.

    In verse 3 we see Jeremiah delivering a message to God´s people that, through-out the past six thousand years, has never changed, ¨Amend your ways.¨ From the time God called Abraham away from his family in Genesis, the LORD has looked for a separate, a different people. God created Adam a perfect man with a free will and Adam chose to follow his good looking woman, Eve, and to disobey God From that moment forward the ¨world¨ has been trouble and God has been calling people, all people, to return to Him. (2Pet. 3:9)

    Jesus reduced the Ten Commandments down to two Great Commandments, which if followed, will see a man or a woman obeying all 613 explanations. Yet, in spite of Jesus' statement in the Gospels that He had not come to do away with the Law and that not one title would ever pass away, the New Testament Christian, an oxymoron, has, indeed cast the Law into the Dung Heap! And yet if we go no further than the Book of Romans we find Paul, in the KJV mentioning the Law 78 times in 52 verses.

    Now, up front, we are not under the penalty of the Law, we, Christians, are under Grace but the Law is very important to us for many reasons, two of them I´ll mention here. First, the Law is the perfect Word Picture, or Illustration of Jesus who is God in the flesh of a man. And second, the Law is our Code Of Conduct! This is the example we are to seek to model to the Lost Man.

    Over the years I have been permanently banned from a number of web sites, claiming to be Christian, because my teaching of the importance of the Law to the Christian has offended folks. God has not put His call on any man´s life to tickle the ears of the masses. If you look at teachers like Joel Osteen and Rick Warren you will see that tickling ears builds monster followings but who are they following? If a man, any man, follows God and obeys God to receive his messages, only, from God, he will offend people. God´s ways are not preferred by most of the world, that is why The Christian Faith is such a small following.

    So, can a man live a Holy life? Not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit! When Jesus departed the Disciples, He promised the Comforter would be sent, by Him, to us. That is the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is there with any Saved Man. The difference between a God fearing Christian and a carnal Christian is the quenching of the Holy Spirit. The God fearing Christian makes the effort to listen to the Spirit he or she is indwelt by and everybody else quenches that same Spirit whether saved and indwelt or unsaved and the Spirit knocking at their heart´s door. With the indwelling of the Spirit of God and the personal commitment to follow the leading of the Spirit, any person can lead a life dedicated to God, a Holy life.

    Like myself, you will have times that you stiffen your neck and disobey but, again, like myself, you will fall down, repent and be forgiven and reinstated if you love God.
     
  2. freeatlast

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    Bill if they leave because they are offended by truth let them leave. Just teach the truth and let the liberal churches fill up while you seek to populate heaven.
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    I get a little concerned when the "Law" is referred to without definition. I think what is being said is the Law of Moses, i.e. written in the first 5 books, has not been fulfilled. But my understanding is that each and every "requirement" of that Law has been fulfilled so that it has no application to us, born again believers, because we are in Christ. Now as far as the lost, it still seems to function as a tutor to lead the lost to Christ by making them aware they are sinners piling up God's wrath for sinful thoughts and deeds.

    Now every born again believer leads a "holy" life. We have been set apart in Christ, and thus made complete and blameless in the eyes of God. Does that mean we should sin more so grace may abound? Nope. We should strive to follow Christ and especially His example of humility, and thus should disavow any "holier than thou" thinking.

    Whether we can live sinlessly in our eyes is debatable, but whether we can sin less in our eyes is not, we can all do better. But rather than trying to abide in the Law of Moses, we should try to abide in the commands and teachings of Christ.
     
  4. th1bill

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    Van, that´s quite a mouth full! The Law is the Mosaic Law, a.k.a. the Ten Commandments. It has been, quite, usual that Christians I have been taught by and Christians I have taught and fellowshipped with, understood this without explicit explanation. And on the matter of fulfilling we find that Jesus, a.k.a. God, said in Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (KJV) So your statement is to call Jesus a liar and that is a silly adventure to pursue.

    No! You really need to read the Christian Manifesto, the Epistle to the Romans. The Law was and is the Christian´s tutor. Because of the Law we are able to identify when we sin and while the Law is indeed te tutor of the Lost also, they are still under the Law. Only God´s Grace can remove the penalty of the Law and to him or to her, that is saved by that Grace, the Law is also an excellent word picture of our God and what we are to strive to become. Add to that the example Jesus lived for us on how to apply that Law to our daily lives and you will avoid quenching the Holy Spirit and youĺl never become Legalistic!

    I do not know how long you have been studying nor do I know if you do or just listen to somebody preach but in any case the teaching and commandments of Jesus include every word of the Bible, known to most as the Old Testament. (John 1:1-3) There is nothing in this world that has not been done or said by the Son of God, Jesus!
     
  5. Van

    Van
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    Lets leave our character and qualifications on the table, and discuss the topic of the "Law."

    Now before the Mosaic Law was given, people were suffering the consequence of transgressing the "Law." They just did not know they were volitionally going against God's unexpressed will, so they were not sinning in the manner of Adam.

    So early on, the "Law" was "God's Law" and the penalty for violation was death.

    Then Moses gave us the "old Covenant Law" written in the first 5 books. These commands included more than the ten commandments, they provided guidance for living (i.e. moral law) and for worshiping (ceremonial Law).

    No one is under the Old Covenant today, but we all are still under God's Law. For example there is no need to sacrifice animals, Christ provided the sacrifice once for all under the New Covenant in His blood.

    Now the Law is more than the "Christian tutor" because it leads the "lost" to Christ making them aware of their sins. But no one piles us wrath for not sacrificing animals. It has been fulfilled, all requirements satisfied "in Christ."

    But what about those not "in Christ?" Does not violation of the moral law given by Moses under the Old Covenant pile up wrath? Nope. But violation of God's law, as unexpressed or given under the New Covenant does pile up wrath. So where the Old Covenant Law expresses the current will of God under the New Covenant which replaced the Old Covenant, then the requirement is valid and violation is sin because that part of the Mosaic Law mirrors the "Law of Christ" which is now in effect.

    This is the only view that I am aware of that is consistent with all scripture, especially Romans and Hebrews.
     
    #5 Van, Jun 24, 2011
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  6. BobinKy

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. Alive in Christ

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    Living the "holy" life is nothing more than living with the attitude "not I..but Christ".

    Paul put it this way...

    Christ said...

    And...

    Regarding the Law...We have been freed from it, and its totally impossible demands. Christ fullfilled every requirment of the Law, and His perfection in that regards has been imputed to us. Imputed rightiousness. We are now seen as as being completly rightious...because of Christ.


    As new covenant believers, we are expected to be a *channel*, so to speak, as we allow Christ to live in, and speak through...us.

    If Christ speaks, we speak. If Christ does not speak, we do not speak. We are expected to be in total dependance on Christ.
     
    #7 Alive in Christ, Jun 24, 2011
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  8. Van

    Van
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    It sort of sounds new age to say Christians are "channeling" Christ.
     
  9. Alive in Christ

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    Van...

    Thats precisely why I worded it the way I did, adding... *so to speak*...so that nobody could misunderstand.
     
    #9 Alive in Christ, Jun 24, 2011
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  10. th1bill

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    Look, itś simple to make a fool of one´s self, just as illustrated by your past two posts. The Bible is the Word of God as recorded by the men God inspired to do so... every word of it! I took the time in my life to study the Word of God over the past twenty-one years plus and I responded as I was and am led by the Holy Spirit, giving you the word from the Bible with reference to the passages.

    You, on the other hand, speak from the top of your head or phrased in another manor, youŕe shooting from the hip and that is always lacking for accuracy. You are presenting yourself to be the fool or stupid person of the book of Proverbs. You can object to characterizations but the problem at the root of it all is you have the Worldś dislike and distaste for exactly what the seventh chapter of Matthew calls on the Christian to do... Judge others by the same standard we wish to be judged by. This principal is repeated throughout the Holy Bible and when God says a thing more than once... you had better be paying attention.

    In your second paragraph you have built a Straw Man for you to mount your Great White Steed and mow down. Using broad based and anti-scriptural ideologies for instruction is a fool´s playground. Now, do not jump up in my face and try to lie to me by telling me that you are not teaching. Every word that either one of us mutters, shouts or publishes is taken by someone as instruction, so you are teaching and it is not scriptural, as seen by the complete lack of scriptural reference.

    The truth of the matter, concerning ¨God´s¨ Law, it began in the Garden of Eden when God issued one commandment, Genesis 2:16-17, and from that point forward God Commanded men in many different areas. (All of the Book of Genesis) Even the Mid-Wives in Egypt knew God had laws and they refused to kill the males because of their knowledge of Godś word their law! God´s Law, as given to Moses (Exodus... the Ten Commandments) was now written, by the hand of God, on stone tablets. God´s Law has always been present and just as Jesus stated, see reference in my last post, none of it will ever pass away!

    [qutoe]
    So early on, the "Law" was "God's Law" and the penalty for violation was death.[/quote]

    By implication, here, you are teaching that there is no longer a death penalty for unrepented sin and that is not only Heresy, it is Universalism, not Christianity.

    The Law is every man´s teacher (I previously mentioned that you need to read to study the Christian Manifesto) and as such, these words (the Ten Commandments) when coupled with the words taught by God in the flesh of a man provide us with perfect instruction on how to live the Holy Life (a life separated from the world) and how to properly worship God.

    And once more you are building a Straw Man, attributing to me by implication and trying to run me down a Rabbit trail. I never said, nor did I imply that you or anyone else needs to slaughter a Bull or a Lamb. But Bubba, if you will just take the time to read the scriptures I gave to you in this and in the previous posts you will, indeed, see that every person, not saved by grace, is under the death sentence required by the Law!

    And the scripture address for your point is?


    And the scripture address for your point is?

    The highlighted in red is calling Jesus a liar! (Matthew 24:35, John 1:1-3) You continually imply that Jesus is not the God of the Bible (Your Old Testament) or that somewhere in the 400 years of silence He changed His mind. (Mal. 3:6)
     
  11. Van

    Van
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    In among your pile of slander toward me, you did seem to ask several questions.

    Van said: "But what about those not "in Christ?" Does not violation of the moral law given by Moses under the Old Covenant pile up wrath? Nope."

    Bill said: "And the scripture address for your point is?" Hebrews 8:7-13

    Van said: "But violation of God's law, as unexpressed or given under the New Covenant does pile up wrath."

    Bill said: "And the scripture address for your point is?" Romans 2:1-5

    Next, you imply that I am saying the Words of Christ will "pass away" when Matthew 24:35 says His words will not pass away. But my view, Christ has fulfilled the [Mosaic] Law is consistent with Matthew 5:17-18.

    In summary, I have shown you from scripture why the view expressed in post # 5, is the correct view of the applicablity of the Old Covenant "Law" if you care to accept it.
     
  12. th1bill

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    Van, slander, I have not done. Have I determined according to the Word of God that you are teaching heresy, yes and I have done as the Word of God commands and pointed it out to you.

    Thank-you for pointing me to the scripture you have bent out of itś context to arrive at this heretical teaching. Now, if you will go no further back than the first verse of this chapter you will see that the author of this passage was speaking of the Jews, are you a Jew, by faith or by birth? neither I nor most of the members of the Church are.

    Once more, thank-you, if I have a scripture address it is easy to converse about what the Bible does and does not teach. The first word of the first verse, clearly, states that you are drafting this passage out of itś context. The actual context of this passage begins with verse 1 of chapter 1 but if you will just go back to verse 19 and read forward you will find that He 9s speaking of whore-mongers, adulterers, homosexuals and such, who, because of their rejection of God, remain under the Old Covenant.

    I have quoted the verses and if you will notice the highlighted in green you will notice that Jesus has put a condition on the statement. Until all is accomplished would be at the end of Eternity and to that there is no end... do you see what that does to the Law?

    Actually, in summary, I have shown you how someone has taught you to corrupt the Word of God and it is my prayer that you understand the truth.
     
  13. Van

    Van
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    The New Covenant is not for the Jews only. Therefore Hebrews 8:7:13 applies to everyone.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, Sir, but Romans 1:18 says the wrath of God is revealed against "all" ungodliness, and therefore is not limited to sinners that fall into your classifications.

    Romans 2:12 sums up my view, those who have sinned without the Law [given by Moses] have never the less violated unknowingly God's law and piled up wrath.

    "Until all is accomplished" is a key conditional statement to be sure. But when the New Covenant was inaugurated, Jesus had accomplished establishing the replacement for the Old Covenant. Recall the words, "it is finished!"

    Therefore the view presented in post #5 is consistent with all scripture, and your view is not, in my opinion.
     
    #13 Van, Jun 26, 2011
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  14. th1bill

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    Please pay attention to the context when you read the Word! The highlighted in your post explains exactly what I have striven to make clear to you.
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    Reply to Bill

    Well, well, so now you agree with post #5.

    Now was that so hard? :)
     
  16. freeatlast

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    Should pastors preach and teach to obey the moral commands? Basically the 10 commandments excluding the Sabbath law?
     
  17. Van

    Van
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    Reply to Freeatlast,

    I think not, but should preach and teach the moral law of Christ, just as Matthew 28:20 says they should. And this includes (1) Love God with all your heart and (2) love your neighbor as yourself, which sums up the 10 commandments.

    And if they do not have a list of Christ's specific teachings, they should make one. I posted about 75 teachings of Christ which pretty much covers the subject as presented in Matthew: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=70635
     
    #17 Van, Jun 27, 2011
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  18. freeatlast

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    if the commandments are not preached how does one know how to show that love and how is the law of Christ different then the law of God since Christ gave the law because He is the God of the OT?
     
  19. th1bill

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    I have just about given up trying to instruct Van. He insists on teaching heresy that will condemn him to eternity in Hell. He is so wrapped up in his false teaching that it has become his pride and that is such a dangerous position to be found in. At the very best he is a New Testament Christian that has devised two gods in the Bible. He is the perfect example of why the term ¨New Testament Christian¨ is an oxymoron. I hope you can get the truth to be understood by him and he´s lucky he is not posting where I moderate because about now he would be banned.
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    reply to freeatlast,

    I said the commands and teachings of Christ should be preached and you respond as if I said God's commands should not be preached. Huh??

    Why not compare and contrast Christ's teachings from Matthew with the directions given by Moses, rather than deny that the New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.
     

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