The HS in the OT

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Jul 26, 2005.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin
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    Joshua in (Num 27:18) had the (S)spirit. (breath of life, eternal?) Did Joshua have the “HS” and the congregation just “A” spirit? Did the other people in the OT that were saved receive the HS by act of faith at some point in time while in the flesh and Joshua “a man in whom is the spirit” (before them, already saved, reborn?) or just being appointed a shepherd for the Lord over the congregation which also had the same mortal spirit as him?

    Psalms 51:11, “and take not thy holy spirit from me. “
    Isaiah 63:11, “where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him?”
    Daniel 4:18, “for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.”

    These people believed the Gospel and by faith received the HS forever at that time?
     
  2. exscentric

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    The Lord told the disciples He was going to send the comforter, thus they seemingly didn't have the HS within as the NT saints do. Many feel the HS came and went upon the OT believer.

    Others feel that there is no difference between the OT and the NT saints indwelling.

    You might want to study regeneration a little in light of this question.

    In my experience strong Calvinists hold to the latter and Calminians hold to the first.

    You might see if you can find a book "THE HOLY SPIRIT" by Walvoord for the first position. I'd guess you will get further posts of the other position and books that cover the topic.

    If you look at all the passages the first seems to be the most logical to me.
     
  3. ituttut

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    I believe exscentric made an excellent choice. God the Holy Spirit is seen all throughout the bible, and gave gifts of "wisdom", of "power and strength", workmanship, miracles, prophesy, and so forth, so I’ll not point to many specifics here. I don’t believe scripture will support they of old could be sealed as we today.

    However, some chosen of God I believe were indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but they could have the Spirit taken away. We see this happening to Saul, and the Holy Spirit given to David, where it stayed, for He was the King of God's people - I Samuel 16:13-14. But we also see the Old Testament saints did not have the assurance of salvation, for David prayed a prayer we will never need to pray (Psalms 51:11). I believe they all had to endure until the end, for it is by the blood of Jesus Christ that we are made righteous, and because of His work and sacrifice we are immediately and forever saved – Romans 6:22.

    We see today, and in years past some preachers, evangelists, priests and others that are saved, and perhaps some may not be (hope I’m wrong here), and they have lost their positions, and gift/s of the Holy Spirit, being set aside for they have abused their freedom and liberty that we find in Christ. Of course, I do believe those that continue in their sin/s are not ashamed, and I really don’t see how they were saved to start with. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  4. exscentric

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    Just a question to ponder, if this is true, then what is the reason for this drastic difference between Old and New?
     
  5. Benjamin

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    I guess, first it depends if you believe in OSAS in the New, but not in the Old. Would like to hear an explanation for why that had to be, if so. A great gift “the glory of God” an unclear promise for them, a finished reality for us, by faith either way.
     
  6. exscentric

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    OSAS must be in both periods or you would have some serious questions to answer :) Like, is God unfair?
     
  7. ituttut

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    For Benjamin also. I used to “ponder” this question, but no more. I believe there has to be a difference, for the Old is no more. All things are New. In the Old how could the saints enter into the Body of Christ? How could they be justified – made righteous, and be as Christ; How could they be sealed?

    His Grace freely justifies us, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, for it is by the Grace of God, Through faith that we are saved.

    Those of Old, didn’t know His name by whom they had to come, so they came By faith, and they could not come through His blood that had not been shed.

    How could they be “sealed” while living, when they were not in His Body? Upon death they were in the earth in the bosom of Abraham for Jesus Christ to bring Paradise. Once Abraham, Moses, David and the rest died and were in Abraham’s bosom, they were made secure and sealed in that separate compartment in Sheol (Hades). I believe this is what God shows us in His Word.

    Also New is the Gentile is now included and has been given the mantle by God to have the Gentile carry the message of the "grace commission" to all of the world, for the "great commission" given to Jesus' Apostles, was nailed to the Cross, and died there, for the nations blessings was chopped down, just as Jesus warned in a parable. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  8. exscentric

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  9. Benjamin

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    There was a difference as the OT captives were not set free, or delivered. In light of me throwing in the word “reborn” Duh, They couldn’t be in the Body of Christ. I would still ask if they were not somehow sealed in the promise of God’s Word through faith and believing in the same Good News and had HOPE like us. If the Spirit was in them, then wouldn’t they be in the Spirit, although not in the Body of Christ who was to deliver them? Who put them on the other side of the “great gulf” and then didn’t they still know He was still with them and they were still saved by faith?

    (Psa 71:9) Cast me not off in the time of old age; forsake me not when my strength faileth.

    (Psa 71:10) For mine enemies speak against me; and they that lay wait for my soul take counsel together,

    (Psa 71:11) Saying, God hath forsaken him: persecute and take him; for there is none to deliver him.

    (Psa 71:12) O God, be not far from me: O my God, make haste for my help.

    (Psa 71:13) Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonor that seek my hurt.

    (Psa 71:14) But I will hope continually, and will yet praise thee more and more.

    (Psa 71:15) My mouth shall show forth thy righteousness and thy salvation all the day; for I know not the numbers thereof.

    We have by the continued revelation of the Good News been told that by believing in God’s Son (having the Deliverer’s job already finished) or in other words having faith in Him we are also saved and have HOPE.

    (Rom 8:24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    (Rom 8:25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    (Rom 8:26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    (Rom 8:27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    (Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    We are told that all things work together for them that love God. Trinity-God works together right? The Spirit knows our heart and makes intercession for us.

    This would seem to point that the major difference is we are already delivered, set free.


    Don’t we come by faith also, whether Jesus’ blood has us already being delivered, or a promise of a way to be delivered, that God the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, is faithful and still by our faith in Him we are saved. I hope you’re not telling me we have to know in His name, such as the Cosmic Conscious Oneness people who don’t seem to recognize there is a Trinity and God comes to us in different forms and purposes. WE know that our promise of deliverance came by the Father’s promise to the Son and with the help of the Holy Spirit. THEY knew they had the Father’s promise of deliverance, but not the means, (for if they had known, they wouldn’t have crucified Him) and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    Isn’t the major difference just that the Good News has been fully revealed in how we are to be delivered and we are set free already; and as for Paul being instructed how to teach us that in God’s Wisdom in order to be a stumbling block to the Jews who didn’t see how it was coming, and to appease the Gentiles who wanted to see the wisdom in the whole thing and this is why Paul was saying, “were you baptized in the name of Paul” clarifying and pointing to the truth that he was not involved in the Trinity and there was just One Gospel and deliverer of “all” and by “All” and now it has been fully revealed to Paul how it should be taught to “all”? 1Cor 2:7

    Sidetracking here, but I have wanted to ask you straight out, Is it Paul’s gospel or God’s Gospel? Because it kind of sounds like you’re putting a fourth person in the Gospel when you call it Paul’s Gospel.

    Also, when the nations blessing were chopped down wasn’t there a renewed covenant offered to them also at that time if they chose to believe in the truth of the One Gospel now fully revealed.
     
  10. ituttut

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    There was a difference as the OT captives were not set free, or delivered. In light of me throwing in the word “reborn” Duh, They couldn’t be in the Body of Christ. I would still ask if they were not somehow sealed in the promise of God’s Word through faith and believing in the same Good News and had HOPE like us. If the Spirit was in them, then wouldn’t they be in the Spirit, although not in the Body of Christ who was to deliver them? Who put them on the other side of the “great gulf” and then didn’t they still know He was still with them and they were still saved by faith?

    The “good news” (gospel) changed to fit God’s program in order to defeat Satan, and ensure Christ Jesus’ kingdom. God did not pour out His Spirit on all that are His until this dispensation. God’s Spirit filled some with knowledge, wisdom, workmanship, etc. but not of the sealing of salvation. The Holy Spirit came upon some at certain times (Samson), and could be completely taken away(King Saul). The Spirit stayed on David while King. Those of Old did not have the assurance as we today. We know we are saved immediately for we died with Him on the Cross where all of our sins are taken care of. This was an impossibility for those in other ages. I can’t find where they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit, as we today are.

    (Psa 71:9) Cast me not off in the time of old age; forsake me not when my strength faileth.

    We need never pray this prayer, or those others you list along this line, for we are in the faith of Jesus Christ, who we come through to the Father.

    (Psa 71:10) For mine enemies speak against me; and they that lay wait for my soul take counsel together,

    (Psa 71:11) Saying, God hath forsaken him: persecute and take him; for there is none to deliver him.

    (Psa 71:12) O God, be not far from me: O my God, make haste for my help.

    (Psa 71:13) Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonor that seek my hurt.

    (Psa 71:14) But I will hope continually, and will yet praise thee more and more.

    (Psa 71:15) My mouth shall show forth thy righteousness and thy salvation all the day; for I know not the numbers thereof.

    We have by the continued revelation of the Good News been told that by believing in God’s Son (having the Deliverer’s job already finished) or in other words having faith in Him we are also saved and have HOPE.

    Agree in the progression of understanding, as God revealed His purpose in His Word.

    (Rom 8:24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    (Rom 8:25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    (Rom 8:26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    (Rom 8:27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    (Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    We are told that all things work together for them that love God. Trinity-God works together right? The Spirit knows our heart and makes intercession for us.

    This would seem to point that the major difference is we are already delivered, set free.

    Seems you are proving my point

    quote:

    Those of Old, didn’t know His name by whom they had to come, so they came By faith, and they could not come through His blood that had not been shed.

    Don’t we come by faith also, whether Jesus’ blood has us already being delivered, or a promise of a way to be delivered, that God the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, is faithful and still by our faith in Him we are saved. I hope you’re not telling me we have to know in His name, such as the Cosmic Conscious Oneness people who don’t seem to recognize there is a Trinity and God comes to us in different forms and purposes. WE know that our promise of deliverance came by the Father’s promise to the Son and with the help of the Holy Spirit. THEY knew they had the Father’s promise of deliverance, but not the means, (for if they had known, they wouldn’t have crucified Him) and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    It is because of the faith of Jesus in His Father to raise Him from the dead, for our faith means nothing, unless we believe we can be saved coming through the faith of Jesus Christ. Scripture says there is no other name under heaven that will save us.

    God is in control, and allows things to happen for His purpose, and that purpose was to defeat Satan, and death, which was done. God allowed Satan to play out his cards, and Satan lost, not knowing what God had hidden from the beginning of the world. Christ’s inheritance grows larger every day, until(I believe) God has replaced those fallen angels with the faithful that are sealed in Christ, part of His inheritance. Can’t be sure of that but it must be something close to it, for John says we will be like Him, but don’t know yet exactly what we will be.


    Isn’t the major difference just that the Good News has been fully revealed in how we are to be delivered and we are set free already; and as for Paul being instructed how to teach us that in God’s Wisdom in order to be a stumbling block to the Jews who didn’t see how it was coming, and to appease the Gentiles who wanted to see the wisdom in the whole thing and this is why Paul was saying, “were you baptized in the name of Paul” clarifying and pointing to the truth that he was not involved in the Trinity and there was just One Gospel and deliverer of “all” and by “All” and now it has been fully revealed to Paul how it should be taught to “all”? 1Cor 2:7

    If I get your drift, I believe you have said what we perhaps both believe, that the “good news” gospel of Paul revealed what God had Hidden until Damascus Road and afterwards.

    Sidetracking here, but I have wanted to ask you straight out, Is it Paul’s gospel or God’s Gospel? Because it kind of sounds like you’re putting a fourth person in the Gospel when you call it Paul’s Gospel.

    Oh yes surely it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but God works through man to accomplish His purpose. He used Abraham to bring Jesus Christ into the world. The Law/s were given to Moses and they became Moses’ Law, and Jesus Christ lived under the laws of Moses and fulfilled prophecies and the Law of Moses. Jesus Christ preached the gospel of John the Baptist, appointed Peter the leader of the Pentecostal church to carry out the “great commission”, then revealed to Paul His(Christs gospel), which became Paul’s Gospel. You will need to argue this point ---*1 with Christ Jesus, after you convince Paul it is not His gospel, and His gospel is to the Gentile ---*2 for they will Hear It ---*3.

    *1, ”In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel”,Romans 2:16.

    *2, ”For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office”, Romans 11:13.

    *3, ”Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it”, Acts 28:28.

    Also, when the nations blessing were chopped down wasn’t there a renewed covenant offered to them also at that time if they chose to believe in the truth of the One Gospel now fully revealed.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I read it as after we are raptured, and then after the tribulation, there will be a New covenant made with His people as the kingdom comes.

    Today only we come as individuals, for God is not today dealing with His nation, and the churches today are not Israel. We are being saved as individuals into His Church. I believe there are little clues divided, or scattered all around in the Bible, showing us one that definitely points to the nation being saved, and then another to the individual being saved, and these “good news” gospels are not the same.

    In Acts 2:37-39 Paul speaks to the nation, for it is they that ask, ”Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38. Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

    We see from His Word that this command, the “great commission” is spoken to the Jew, and to the Jew only, for the promise is to YOU of the Nation of Israel, and Your Children, and All the Children that are afar off. All evidence points to the fact that there were no Gentiles preached to or at by an Apostle, James, or any of the Pentecostal church until Peter was sent by God to the First Gentile, Cornelius. This happened after Christ spoke to Paul on Damascus Road, and we see in Acts 10:43-44 the Gentile’s that Peter preached to were saved by the Gospel of the Gentile, and not of the Jew. Christian faith, itutut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  11. Benjamin

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    Thanks for your time.
     
  12. wopik

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    According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd edition, article: Spirit of God (all quotes come from this article) ---

    "The OT (Old Testament) clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God's spirit is simply God's Power.

    If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly (Isa. 48:16; 63:11; 32:15).......Very rarely do the OT writers attribute to God's spirit emotions or intellectual activity (Isa. 63:10; Wis.1:3-7). When such expressions are used, THEY ARE MERE FIGURES OF SPEECH that are explained by the fact that the RUAH was regarded also as the seat of intellectual acts and feeling (Gen. 41:8)."

    THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA FURTHER STATES:

    ".......the NT (New Testament) concepts of the Spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT.......The majority of NT texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.

    When a quasi-personal activity is ascribed to God's spirit, e.g., speaking, hindering, desiring, dwelling (Acts 8:29; 16:7; Rom.8:9), one is NOT JUSTIFIED IN CONCLUDING immediately that in these passages God's spirit is regarded as a Person; the same expressions are used in regard to rhetorically personified things or abstract ideas (see Rom.6:6; 7:17).

    Thus the context of the phrase 'blasphemy against the spirit' (Mat.12:31; cf. Mat.12:28; Luke 11:20) shows that reference is being made to the power of God".
     

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