The I In The TULIP Doctrine

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by tyndale1946, Feb 16, 2002.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>GRACE AND WORKS

    Good works do not proceed, or induce grace; but grace is before and induces good works. Good works then are not independent of grace, but good works follow as a result of grace. Works, whether good or bad, do not lead to repentance; but the "goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance." Neither believers nor unbelievers can induce faith and repentance in themselves nor in others but the Bible says faith "is given," and that Jesus is exalted to "give repentance." We are saved "not of works," but we are saved "by grace." Our works do not bring salvation; but the "grace of God brings salvation," and "teaches us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly and righteously in this present evil world." Men nor all their works cannot save from hell and bring even one soul to God. But "God CHOOSES and CAUSES the man to approach unto him." Since man cannot save himself, he is necessitated to cry unto God, "Lord save me." While we feel a deep concern for our fellow-beings here and hereafter, we cannot save them from death in sins. Salvation is not left with men. With men salvation is impossible, but not with God; "for with God all things are possible." So those dead in sin cannot save themselves, "can do nothing;" but Paul by the Spirit says, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." God saves us from hell and then commands, inclines and causes us to save ourselves from this untoward (bad) generation." God having saved you, dear brethren, by the renewing work of the Spirit, he commands you to work out your own salvation, while he also "worketh in you both to will and to do"--enabling you to obey. So grace and works are linked together as cause and effect. Grace is the cause and good works the effect. Dear brethren, good works are performed by us, but not without God then working in us. When we work out our salvation "it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure;" for "God hath wrought all our Works in us." To God be all the praise. Dear reader, do you love God and his people? Then you are born again, and as a result of this grace you will be led to perform good works. And I beg you to abound in good works more and more. If some of you who read this have never felt this love for God, but you love the vain ways of the world and are pleased with sin, then your condition is indeed bad. Yet you need not conclude you are doomed to sin and to torment, and so increase in sin yet more. God is able to yet dispose and draw you to Jesus if it seems good in His sight. And him that is thus drawn in loving desire, or "cometh to Jesus He will in nowise cast out." If saved you must be saved, not of your works, but by God's grace, through the obedience of Jesus Christ. If according to his will, may God "put his fear within you" and shed abroad His love in your "heart by the Holy Ghost."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This was a sermon by one of our Elders Moses Denman on Irresistible Grace the 4th point of the TULIP Doctrine. I will let you read it and comment and reply later... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher
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    There is no other grace other than irresistible grace. Grace is not offerred, but bestowed upon those whom God wills to show mercy.

    "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." [Rom. 9:16]

    Were grace offerred, rest assured that no man would ever be saved because natural man does not come to God.

    "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." [John 3:20]

    God's grace is given to whomever the Father chooses.

    "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." [John 5:21]

    Armenians do not understand God's grace. They make it seem as though God and man are but on a battlefield to fight to see who wins; if man wins he does not have receive God's grace, and if God wins man has to receieve God's grace. This is far from the truth. When God bestows his grace upon someone, they do not fight God, they want God. That is the point. God's sheep hear His voice and willingly follow Him. He does not have to tie them up and drag them, have a good youth program at the church they attend, have high-pressure "altar calls" or anything else. God changes a man and makes him want Him. God does not force Himself on a man.

    Do you think God gave Saul on a chance on the road to Damascus. God did not say, "Be the apostle to the Gentiles if you so choose." God acted upon Saul, and had it not been for irresitible grace, Saul would have ran away from the presence of the Lord only to persecute more Christians. God blinded Saul, therefore he could not run! But did Paul regret that God had saved him? Certainly not! Paul said that he was separated by God from his birth, and was called by God.

    "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace," [Gal. 1:15]

    In the New Testament, It is clear that Paul was an apostle by the will of God.

    "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" [Eph. 1:1]

    It was God's will for Paul to be an apostle. God will do His will and cannot be hindered by mortal man.

    "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" [Is. 46:10]

    When Jesus chose his disciples, he only said, "Follow me," and they followed.

    "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power." [Eph. 3:7]

    Would God's power really be effectual if it could be resisted by man?

    "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." [John 3:8]

    God's Holy Spirit blows where it listeth [wishes]. It does not need permission.

    Finally, the new birth is likened to birth [John 3:3-6], quickening [Eph. 2:1-5], translation [Col. 1:13], and resurrection [Eph. 2:10]. No man has ever contributed in the least to any of these transitions nor successful resisted them.

    -Christopher

    P.S. - I have never heard a man say that he had a bad case of salvation and was trying to get rid of it.
     
  3. jpbrooks

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    Hello again, all.

    The II/secular Web discussion forum has been keeping me busy, but they are down for maintenance right now.

    Good works, in order to be genuinely good according to God's moral standard, cannot be done according to the wrong motive. The motive behind all works ought to be the glory of God (1 Corinthians 1:29, 10:31).
    And if this is the motive behind one's acts, then it is the result of a right attitude toward God. So, it is impossible for "good works" to precede salvation in any case.

    -John Phillip Brooks
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    This is a quote from God's Operations Of Grace But No Offers Of Grace by Joseph Hussey (1659-1726
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. As to the name, men have stored it with a show of wisdom, and willworship, as the apostle says, (Col. 2:23) in terms of their own procuring. For, the word offer is not to be found in Scripture in any other sense than to sacrifice. And to be sure, when these men offer Christ, they do not mean that they sacrifice him: no; they have another meaning in the term, as it relates to the preaching of the Gospel, though they thus express themselves. And therefore they speak sometimes of offers of grace; sometimes propounding the offer; sometimes proposals of the Gospel offer; sometimes tenders of the Gospel; sometimes tendering salvation. Blind and scriptureless forms! If men mean preaching the Gospel by these phrases, it is an intolerable assault upon the sacred text of both Testaments, to word it so perversely.

    The Oracles of God have an elegant variety of expression, to set forth the preaching of Jesus Christ. As for example, it is called speaking, 1 Cor. 2:7, 13, speaking the word, Phil. 1:14, preaching, Acts 20:25, preaching the gospel, Luke 30:1, preaching glad tidings, Isa. 61:1, preaching the kingdom of God, Acts 28:31, preaching the Gospel of the kingdom, Matt. 4:23, teaching, Rom. 12:7, Col. 1:28, teaching the word of God, Acts 18:11, teaching the things that concern the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 28:31, showing the glad tidings - of the kingdom of God, Luke 8:1, declaring glad tidings, Acts 13:32, showing by the Scriptures, Acts 18:28, bringing glad tidings of good things, Rom. 10: 15 and the like. But never once in all this variety of phrase, do the Scriptures call preaching the Gospel by the names of offering, proffering, propounding or tendering grace, Christ, salvation and glad tidings to sinners.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is why it is called Irresistible Grace, because of Gods work in his childrens hearts no man can resist or reject his eternal saving grace... You can never "Fall" from grace no matter what you've been taught... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

    [ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does not the plea confine the operations of the Holy Spirit to common and external workings? Wherein does your plea give Jehovah the Spirit His due honor in the internal and mighty workings of His grace on sinner's hearts. that sinners may believe, repent, and be saved? I therefore conclude that our brethren, looking upon their plea to a poor fortification for their offers of grace to sinners, will undertake to mend it.


    Sinners are nowadays addressed as follows: "Christ has died for you. Salvation is all finished. All you have to do is
    come." A strange method, truly, of prophesying to the dead! "All finished," and yet something left for the sinner to do!
    "All finished," yet the redeemed left to do that very thing of which Jesus said, "No man can come to Me, except the
    Father which hath sent Me draw him"' Divorce Christ's dying words from their historic connection, and a theological
    chaos will be the sure result. -James M. Sangar
    (From "The Redeemed: Who Are They?")<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    ... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Christopher:
    There is no other grace other than irresistible grace. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There is common grace which is distinct from effectual grace. We need not be more narrow than Scripture is.
     
  7. Christopher

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    In referring to saving grace, there is no other than irresisible grace. I know there is a common grace, but saving grace is the whole topic of this issue.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Just making sure. [​IMG]
     
  9. Eladar

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    Many are called, but few are chosen.

    The calling is not irresistable, but being chosen is.
     
  10. JAMES2

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    [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  11. tyndale1946

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    This is for Tudor:
    Not according to Romans 8:28-29... You are applying saving grace in place of living grace. Gods elect by Irresistible Grace are secure forever... No ifs, ands, or buts... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  12. tyndale1946

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    James2: The reason you are missing something is because the way you have been taught. This is a HARD doctrine to understand, and if you don't think so why are so many of Gods children on what can I do to help God forums. Very few embrace the truth as they are in Christ Jesus.

    Remember in the scriptures when some of his disciples said these are hard saying and walked no longer with him. They were still his blood bought children but according to their understanding this was a hard doctrine.

    Unless the Lord gives anyone here the enlightenment they will never understand it. I'm sure others here who now embrace the doctrines related in the TULIP Doctrine will tell you the same thing. This is not what the world teaches as they teach a accept/reject Salvation. God is able to keep secure those quadzillion who are embraced in his Irresistible Grace without the intervention of but one Man... Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    Quadzillion- The Elect- A number no man could number... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  14. JAMES2

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    [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    When I read John 5:40 I am under the impression that God wants sinners to come to Him, but they will not yield to His call to the Gospel. Jesus said, ‘ . . . ye will not come to Me.'

    In the Acts of the Apostles chapter seven in Stephen's apology he tells the Israelites that they were rebellious toward God just as their fathers were toward the Gospel. These Israelites were guilty just as their ancestors a few hundred years before. [Note Isaiah 65:2] When Stephen says, '. . . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost he was saying that they were obstreperous toward the Triune Godhead. This is what Biblical theology means when it declares that some people are going to resist the overtures coming from Almighty God.

    In Romans 10:21 God speaking through the Apostle Paul says, ‘All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.' When people are disobedient to the call of the Gospel we say they have resisted the will of God and His offer of free and unmerited grace. Biblical theology calls this Resistible Grace. No one needs to be taught that the Israelites turned away the Messiah, our Savior, and in the Providence and plan of God He opened the Gospel to the Gentiles. [John 1:11 & 12].

    Respectfully,

    "Ray"
     
  16. Eladar

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tyndale1946:
    This is for Tudor:
    Not according to Romans 8:28-29... You are applying saving grace in place of living grace. Gods elect by Irresistible Grace are secure forever... No ifs, ands, or buts... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was just bringing up Jesus' analogy of the kingdom of heaven as the wedding feast. At the end of it Jesus states that many are called but few are chosen. They are called to the wedding feast (heaven) but don't dress appropriately and are thrown out.
     
  17. tyndale1946

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    Many are called but few are chosen... You are applying that illustration to heaven. Why?... The few chosen must be a number no man could number because that what the scriptures tell me about the population of heaven. According to your analogy HELL will have more people than HEAVEN!... Isn't that what you said Tudor... Anyone else agree with that?... I don't... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
  18. Eladar

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    Jesus says that the gate to destruction is wide and many pass through it and that the gate to salvation is narrow and few find it.

    Either your understanding of your Bible is flawed, or Jesus lied. You must be in error.
     
  19. tyndale1946

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    Tudor there is more than one way to apply the word "salvation or saved" in the scriptures and its not always eternal... Brother Glen :eek:
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    While you are digesting that thought read this from Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb... Now where are those that went in the wide gate, since according to you few will go in the narrow gate. This applies in your walk with God not eternal salvation. You are right God did not lie!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     

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