THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION - MARY BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN???

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by rbrent, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. rbrent

    rbrent
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    The Immaculate Conception

    According to the Catholic Encyclopedia Mary was
    Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined this teaching in 1854.

    I would be interested to know of any verses of scripture which say the above things.
    Since this belief of Roman Catholicism wasn’t pronounced and defined until 1854, it must be a non-scriptural or extra-biblical belief of Roman Catholicism that has no support in the scriptures.

    I already know that Catholics use Genesis 3:15 and Luke 1:28 as “proof texts for their beliefs about the Immaculate Conception.

    But I’ve read those verses many times and there is not anything in those verses to indicate that Mary was born without original sin.

    How about it my Catholic friends,

    Can you defend your belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, from the scriptures?
     
  2. Harley4Him

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    What's original sin?
     
  3. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    I just had an interesting mental image. Remember the Duracell Battery commercials with the bunny?


    Added:
    (this is one of those "inside jokes")
     
  4. rbrent

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    Catholics believe (according to the Catholic Encyclopedia) - “Original sin may be taken to mean:

    (1) the sin that Adam committed;

    (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam."

    (3) Bible Believers cite Romans 5:12 as the proof-text for “original sin”.

    "Wherefore, as by one man {Adam} sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned..."
     
  5. Harley4Him

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    Does original sin keep us from God's grace just like regular sin?
     
  6. rbrent

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    "Original sin" basically means that we are all born with a sin nature and need a Savior. (Romans 5:12)

    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

    That means we all need to get saved, including Mary.

    If Mary was Immaculately Conceived and had no original sin and was not a sinner, why did she say in Luke 1:47

    "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior."

    If Mary had no sin nature as Catholics teach, why did Mary need a Savior?
     
  7. Johnv

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    I think the idea is that Adam's sin has resulted in a predelection for all humans to have a tendancy to sin. We can't escape original sin. However, by being born again, we can overcome it. Whereas, with sin in general, we will sin both before and after being born again. We are sinners before and after being born again.
     
  8. Carson Weber

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    rbrent,

    What's your real first name? You can even provide an alternative.. addressing you as "rbrent" is a bit too formal.

    Original Sin means that one is born with the privation of sanctifying grace in their soul. Rather than a positive quality, Original Sin is a lack thereof. It's an emptiness. It's the living without the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity in one's soul.

    In Luke 1:28, Gabriel addresses Mary with the Greek perfect past participle, kecharitomene, which literally means:

    YOU WHO HAVE BEEN FULLY GRACED.

    This is an action that has been fully completed in the past. Christians have understood this, from apostolic times, to mean that Mary was given the fullness of the indwelling presence of God - his grace - from somewhere in her infancy.

    This, brother, is an interpretation of Scripture, which goes back to the Apostles. The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception is the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture, and all you have to combat it with is your own interpretation, which is not authoritative because you are a random individual without the apostolic laying on of hands, which was an ancient Israelite symbol of the passing on of apostolic authority. The question is one of interpretation. Who's interpretation shall I follow? rbrents? Or, the universal union of those authoritative episkopoi who trace their authority back to Jesus Christ himself who said:

    "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

    If Mary was Immaculately Conceived and had no original sin and was not a sinner, why did she say in Luke 1:47 "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior."

    Mary was saved at her conception.

    Mary's son is her own Saviour.
     
  9. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Just for the record, no matter what the catholic church teaches, Mary WAS a virgin when Jesus was placed in her womb.

    But after He was born she had other kids. So she was no longer a virgin.

    I have no problem with her being called the blessed virgin, as long as we reilize that was about her first pregnancy, and not about others that came after that.

    Working for HIM,

    Tam,

    :D [​IMG]
     
  10. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    And no, she was not born without origional sin! She was born just like all the rest of us. Placed inside her mother in the good old natural way.

    Tam,

    Have a good day!

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. Kamoroso

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    John 1:14
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    I Jn 4:1-3
    1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  12. Carson Weber

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    Hi Tam,

    You wrote, "But after He was born she had other kids. So she was no longer a virgin."

    Dr. Richard J. Bauckham, Protestant professor of New Testament at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland, received his M.A. & Ph.D. at Cambridge. His profile can be found here:

    http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/bauck1.html

    and his published works can be found here:

    http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/bauck2.html

    Bauckham, in "The Brothers and Sisters of Jesus: An Epiphanian Response to John P. Meier," Catholic Biblical Quarterly 56, no. 4 (1994): 686-700, defends the perpetual virginity of Mary from a purely historical-critical Biblical point-of-view as a Protestant Biblical scholar.

    You also wrote, "And no, she was not born without origional sin! She was born just like all the rest of us."

    Do you understand the implications of what you just said? If all are born with Original Sin (which I agree with, with the exception of Mary), then infants need to be saved.

    Christians, from the beginning, have understood that salvation comes by being united to the Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ Through baptism (Cf. Rom 6:3ff) and even infants need the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
     
  13. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Know what? I think this is enough of a different subject that i am going to start a new Topic and leave this one to rbrent, since he is on one subject and this is really another

    See you there!

    working for Him

    Tam,

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  14. rbrent

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    Here are the two proof texts Catholics use to ”prove” the Immaculate Conception - their teaching that Mary was born without original sin.

    “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
    -Genesis 3:15 (KJV)

    “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed; he shall crush your head, and you shall lie in wait for his heel.” - Genesis 3:15 (Confraternity - Douay Version)

    “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” - Luke 1:28 (KJV)

    “And when the angel had come to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, Blessed art thou among women.”” - Luke 1:28 (Confraternity - Douay Version)

    Would any reasonable person, after reading those verses, conclude that Mary was born without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches?

    (1) The verses do not mention the Catholic teaching that Mary was "preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”

    (2) The verses do not mention the Catholic teaching about Mary that “sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.”

    (3) The verses do not say about original sin and Mary, that “it never was in her soul.”

    (4) The verses do not say concerning Mary and original sin that “every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin , were excluded...”

    (5) The verses do not say, as Carson Weber says “that Mary was given the fullness of the indwelling presence of God - his grace - from somewhere in her infancy.”

    (6) The verses do not say or even hint that “Mary was saved at her conception” as Carson alleges.

    Go ahead - read the verses again - Do they say what Carson says?

    Carson contends - “This, brother, is an interpretation of Scripture, which goes back to the Apostles.”

    Carson, you know and I know there is

    not one shred of scriptural evidence and not one shred of historical evidence to support your false claim that the Catholic teaching about Mary being born without original sin “goes back to the Apostles.”

    If what you claim is true, show us the evidence.

    List the scriptures which prove it.

    If your claim is not supported in the scriptures, then forsake it.

    Our beliefs should line up with the ‘scriptures of truth’ - NOT with the false teachings of Roman Catholicism.
     
  15. Singer

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    And Mary did not need salvation?
    Why would a pope whom you refer to as "Holy Father" need salvation and Mary doesn't?

    Note:
    This man is saying that his "Holy Father" (pope) who is the Vicar of Christ that Pope Leo referred to as "taking the place of God Almighty on earth" ) needs salvation but this mere woman (Mary) does not !!
     
  16. Carson Weber

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    rbrent,

    Your most recent post above demonstrates that you have not been reading my responses to you on this section of BaptistBoard. In making posts, you must deal with those who disagree with you if you want to command an audience.

    You wrote, "The verses do not say about original sin and Mary, that “it never was in her soul.”"

    You still don't even know what Original Sin is, even though I have already defined it for you.

    If you can't define Original Sin, then how can you make any positive statements concerning it in relation to Mary?
     
  17. rbrent

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    First of all, I did read your post.

    I believe the Catholic Encyclopedia is more authoritative in defining what Catholics believe than a seminary student who cannot support what he believes from the scriptures.

    Carson, its clear that you refuse to deal with the facts about what the Catholic Church teaches.

    Your 'Catholic Church' teaches that original sin “never was in her {Mary’s} soul.”

    I didn't make that up - I didn't misrepresent what Catholics believe.

    I quoted from the Catholic Encyclopedia, what Catholics believe about Mary and the Immaculate Conception and original sin.

    Obviously, you cannot prove your beliefs from scripture because your beliefs are not based on scripture.

    You make absurd claims in your posts (“This, brother, is an interpretation of Scripture, which goes back to the Apostles.”) and then refuse to back up the claim with scripture.

    I'll ask you again.

    Where is the scripture to prove your beliefs about Mary.

    Scriptural proof please.
     
  18. thessalonian

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    Rbent,
    Do you believe in Original Sin? Most Protestants I have talked to do not. Which of course makes this whole disussion ridiculous. You guys should be saying "of course Mary was born without OS. Everybody is, don't you know.". But your hatred of Catholicism will not allow you to see such a "logical" arguement from your own perspective. I find this very amusing. [​IMG]

    Blessings
     
  19. rbrent

    rbrent
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    thessalonian - As I stated earlier in this thread

    Everyone born into this world - including Mary - but not the Lord Jesus, inherited their sin nature from their physical earthly father, through Adam, according to Romans 5:12.

    Since Jesus did not have a human father, JESUS did not have a sin nature.

    What most Protestants you have talked to believe, is not important in this discussion.

    What is important is “What do the scriptures say?”
     
  20. thessalonian

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    Everyone born into this world - including Mary - but not the Lord Jesus, inherited their sin nature from their physical earthly father, through Adam, according to Romans 5:12.

    Since Jesus did not have a human father, JESUS did not have a sin nature.

    What most Protestants you have talked to believe, is not important in this discussion.

    What is important is “What do the scriptures say?”
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well first of all OS is not just about our sin nature so your applying a definitino that is foriegn to the concept of Catholicism to it to try and refute it. Original sin states that the child is guilty of sin passed on and imprinted on his soul from Adam. We say that Mary was without this stain. Your definition really only addresses the doctrine of IC in that Mary remained without sin which is a logical conclusion if she did not have the stain of OS, i.e. Sin nature that comes from our fallen state due to Adam's sin. So as I stated before, no belief in OS (as it is defined by the Catholic Church) you have no arguement. You do of course deny that God could make another person who was in the same state as Adam and Eve in the garden which is of course contrary to his omnipotence. Further do you believe that Adam and Eve had to sin? Can the grace of God prevent one from sinning as well as save them from sin?

    Blessings
     

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