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The Importance of Calvinism vs Arminianism

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Gershom, Sep 29, 2004.

  1. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Your statement above is untrue. But, I will suggest for your stabalizing force, sitting at the feet of the famous Mr. Harold Camping who teaches on Family Radio.

    He has predicted, in the past, the exact day of the Second Coming of Christ. He teaches that we are presently living in the period called the Great Tribulation, and instructs all Christians to leave their local church and to listen and send their money to him, so he can win the world to Christ. He also teaches that a woman or man as Christian should not leave their spouse, even if there is physical violence. Another great truth coming from this Five Point Calvinist is that the innocent person in a Christian marriage should never remarry.

    As to the remarriage of a violated Christian, the Scripture says this. ' . . . except for the cause of fornication . . . ' [Matthew 5:32]

    So much for Calvinism's lovers of truth who are more stable than other Biblical expositors of the Word of God.

    Berrian, Th.D.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I find it distressing that somebody that has a Th.D. would use the logical fallacy of guilt by association. Therefore, your entire "argument" is false. I have found Arminians that teach you can lose your salvation. So, if we are to go by what individual teachers teach, then Arminians are by no means without guilt.

    Spurgeon and Boyce were both Baptists and expositors of God's WOrd, as well as Calvinists.

    I maintain the truth of my above comments. Arminians when giving testimony tend to dwell on personal experience rather than the work of christ. Calvinism is inherently Godward. Arminianism is inherently manward. Arminians define evangelism in highly pragmatic terms; the effect not the cause of the effect is what is emphasized. It is mancentered, not Christocentric.

    This all leads to a gospel of feeling and experience. It moves it away from the center which is Christ. Sermons become more for the target audience, not the Scripture itself. Doctrinal preaching is exchanged for motivational speech. Reliance on God's Spirit is replaced with, as Finney said, "the rightly constituted means." Thus, it is manifest the seeds of theological liberalism are planted in evangelical churches through Arminianism. Thus, I contend, with others that the road to theological liberalism leads directly through Arminianism.
     
  2. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Dr. Berrian,

    I find it distressing, again, that a person that has a Th.D must rely on logical fallacy in order to make a point. "Guilt by association" is a logical fallacy. Just because I drew from two Presbyterians in part is irrelevant, considering both of those men are known expositors of God's Word. The continued insistence that Calvinists are some how not biblical is simply absurd. Calvinists believe the Bible and preach the gospel. they simply look at it differently than nonCalvinists. It is a matter of perspective. It's a shame a man with education has to use loaded terms like "unloving" and "arbitrary" in order to describe the beliefs of others, when, in fact, such characterizations either incorrectly define the terms (as in the use of the term "arbitrary) or are matters of opinion (as in the case of "unloving"). Frankly, I find that highly suspect in itself, much more suspect than drawing on historic confessions. I remind you that not all Christians are Baptists, and, within their traditions, it is perfectly acceptable to cite confessional statements and analyze them. Since God has blessed 10th St. Presbyterian's ministry for many years, as he has similarly blessed the ministry of Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, a Calvinistic Baptist congregation, both of which have been blessed with remarkable expositors of God's Word, like Spurgeon, it is simply unseemly to attack the ministries of those churches or those men (Boice is recently deceased no less) as somehow "suspect." If God has seen fit to bless their preaching and doctrinal teaching, that is enough for me to cite them in a discussion.


    Again, more empty rhetoric that says God is arbitrary and unjust. The problem of course is that, if Arminianism is correct then God is partial, because God is basing election on something man can do of his natural ability and that He can do himself. Calvinists believe all the Scriptures you just posted. To say we don't is to misrepresent the truth of what they believe.

    You say I lack Scripture support. Ok, where here are a few I drew from work already done by Matt Slick, an acquaintance of mine that runs Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry:

    God's Sovereignty
    God's ability to do and accomplish His will
    -- God does whatever He pleases.
    Gen. 18:14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son."
    Psalm 115:3, "But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."
    Psalm 135:6, "Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps."
    Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;"
    Jer. 32:27, "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?"
    Dan. 4:35, “And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’"
    Matt. 19:26, "And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
    Luke 1:37, "For nothing will be impossible with God."

    Chance occurrence
    Prov. 16:33, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”
    Natural realm - sun, rain, birds, grass, hair. - Top
    Matt. 5:45, “in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
    Matt. 6:26, “Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?”
    Matt. 6:30, “But if God so arrays the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more do so for you, O men of little faith?”
    Matt. 10:29, “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.”
    Matt. 10:30, “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”

    Human History - nations, times, boundaries, people, -
    Acts 17:26, “and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,”
    Psalm 47:1-4, “O Clap your hands, all peoples; Shout to God with the voice of joy. 2For the Lord Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. 3He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet. 4Hchooses our inheritance for us, The glory of Jacob whom He loves.”
    Psalm 33:10, “The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples.”

    Human Birth - God grants offspring and descendents - Top
    Gen. 4:25, “And Adam had relations with his wife again; and she gave birth to a son, and named him Seth, for, she said, “God has appointed me another offspring in place of Abel; for Cain killed him.”
    Deut. 10:22, “Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons in all, and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars of heaven.”
    Ruth 4:13, “So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife, and he went in to her. And the Lord enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son.”
    Human plans and accidents. - Top
    Exodus 21:12, “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13“But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee.”
    James 4:13-15, “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that.”
    Good and ill from God - Top
    Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"
    Health and prosperity - Top
    Exodus 4:11, "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"
    Deut. 32:39, "See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."
    1 Sam. 2:6-7, “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. 7The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts."
    Ecc. 7:13-17, "Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent? 14In the day of prosperity be happy, But in the day of adversity consider— God has made the one as well as the other So that man may not discover anything that will be after him."
    Isaiah 45:5-7, “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."
    Lam. 3:37-38, "Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? 38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?"
    Amos 3:6-7, "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?"
    What God desires; What God arranges - Top
    What God desires
    1 Tim. 2:3-4, "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,"
    2 Pet. 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."
    Luke 14:23, "And the master said to the slave, ‘Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled."
    Heb. 3:7, "Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “Today if you hear His voice, 8Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, as in the day of trial in the wilderness."
    What God arranges
    Rom. 11:8, "just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.'"
    Mark 4:11-12, "And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."
    2 Thess. 2:11, "And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false."
    Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
    Exodus 4:21, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
    See also Exodus 7:3; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10; 14:4 where God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
    Exodus 8:32, "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go."
    Exodus 14:17, "And as for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen."
    Deut. 2:30, "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."
    2 Chron. 25:20, "But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom."
    Isaiah 6:10, "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."
    Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

    Human nature- Total Depravity - Top
    Jer. 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"
    Mark 7:21-23, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."
    John 3:19, "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil."
    John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
    Rom. 3:10-12, "as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; 11There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God; 12All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”
    Rom. 5:6, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
    Rom. 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."
    Rom. 7:18, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."
    Rom. 7:23, "but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."
    1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
    1 Cor. 2:1-5, Paul did not come by the power of human wisdom, but the power of the Holy Spirit.
    1 Cor. 2:6-9, Paul speaks God’s wisdom which the world does not understand.
    1 Cor. 2:10, The Spirit of God reveals the sacred and spiritual things of God.
    1 Cor. 2:11-12, Christians have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit of God, which is why the Christians know the things freely given from God.
    1 Cor. 2:13-14, "which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

    Therefore, 1 Cor. 2:14 is not saying that the natural man, the unregenerate person, cannot understand God's wisdom, it is also saying that they cannot understand because they do not have the Spirit of God. This means that the unsaved cannot understand spiritual things because they do not have the Spirit of God.
    Eph. 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."
    Eph. 2:3, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
    In this verse "nature" is the Greek phusei. It is the dative case (indirect object). This means that the text is not saying that we are by nature children of wrath because we sin. It is saying that we are by nature children of wrath.
    1 Tim. 1:9, "Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers."

    Human freedom -
    -- Libertarian freedom is the freedom to be able to equally choose good and bad in any given situation.

    -- Compatibilist freedom is the freedom to act in accordance with our nature.

    Deut. 30:19, "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants."
    Josh. 24:15, "And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
    God grants and works salvation in us - Top
    John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
    Being born again occurs not by the will of man, but of God.
    Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
    Eph. 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."
    Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

    Predestine is the Greek proorizo, it means...
    "to predetermine, decide beforehand; in the NT of God decreeing from eternity; to foreordain, appoint beforehand" (Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995).
    "to destine or decree beforehand; foreordain," (Webster's New World Dictionary, 1986, p. 1121)
    "To predetermine or foreordain; to appoint or ordain beforehand by an unchangeable purpose," (Webster's Dictionary, 1828.)

    Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."
    1 Thess. 5:9, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    "destined" is the Greek word "tithemei." It means, "to set, put, place; to make; to set, fix establish" (Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995).
    2 Thess. 2:13-14, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
    John 10:25-26, "Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. 26"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
    John 6:44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
    John 6:65, "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."
    If no one can come to God without the Father granting it to him, then the person is powerless to come to God of his own free will.
    Acts 16:14, "And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
    Rom. 12:3, "For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
    1 Pet. 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
    James 1:18, "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures."

    God Predestines
    Predestination
    Greek Proorizo, Strongs # 4309. "to predetermine, decide beforehand; in the NT of God decreeing from eternity, to foreordain, appoint beforehand."
    Proorizo, "which the NT uses only with God as subject, expresses the thought of appointing a situation for a person, or a person for a situation." (The New Bible Dictionary, Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 1962.)
    Predestinate, "To predetermine or foreordain; to appoint or ordain beforehand by an unchangeable purpose," (Websters Dictionary, 1828 edition.)
    Predestine, "To destine or decree beforehand; foreordain," (Websters New World Dictionary, 1986 edition).
    Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur."
    Rom. 8:29-30, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
    1 Cor. 2:6-7, "Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory."
    Eph. 1:4-5, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."
    Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

    God elects individuals
    election is the Greek "eklektos." It is rendered as "elect" and "chosen." Strongs #1588.
    Matt. 22:14, "for many are called [kletos], but few are chosen [eklektos]."
    Kletos, "called, invited."
    Matt. 22:24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect [eklektos]."
    Matt. 22:31, "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
    Luke 18:7, "now shall not God bring about justice for His elect [eklektos], who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?"
    Rom. 8:33, "Who will bring a charge against God’s elect [eklektos]? God is the one who justifies;"
    Romans 16:13, "Greet Rufus, a choice [eklektos] man in the Lord, also his mother and mine."
    Col. 3:12, "And so, as those who have been chosen [eklektos] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;"
    1 Tim. 5:21, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen [eklektos] angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality."
    2 John 1, "The elder to the chosen [eklektos] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,"
    3 John 13, "The children of your chosen [eklektos] sister greet you."
    God's sovereignty over people's hearts and lives
    God hardens people's hearts - Top
    Exodus 4:21, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
    See also Exodus 7:3; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10; 14:4 where God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
    Exodus 8:32, "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go."
    Exodus 14:17, "And as for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen."
    Deut. 2:30, "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."
    2 Chron. 25:20, "But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom."
    Isaiah 6:10, "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."
    Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
    God softens peoples' hearts - Top
    Deut. 29:4, "Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."
    Jer. 24:7, "‘And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."
    The Lord directs people's paths - Top
    Jer. 10:23, “I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself; nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.”
    Prov. 16:9, “The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
    Gen. 45:8, “Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.” – (Joseph in Egypt – His brothers, therefore, were not free to kill Joseph)
    Isaiah 44:28, “It is I who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd! and he will perform all My desire.’ And he declares of Jerusalem, ‘She will be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”
    1 Sam. 10:9, “Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came about on that day.”
    Prov. 21:1, “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever He wishes.”
    Psalm 105:24-251, "And He caused His people to be very fruitful, and made them stronger than their adversaries. 25He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
    John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
    Dan. 1:9, “Now God granted Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the commander of the officials.”
    Rev. 17:17, "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be fulfilled."

    Does God affect human choices?
    1 Pet. 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."


    Other
    Miscellaneous Verses
    Prov. 16:4, "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil."
    Rom. 9:22-23, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

    God Foreknows
    Proginosko,
    Acts 2:38, "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."
    1 Pet. 1:1-2, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
    1 Pet. 1:20, "For He [Christ] was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."
    KJV says, "Who verily was foreordained before the .... "
    If God looked into the future to see what choice would be made, then who did He foreknow the death of Christ? Was it simply something that God looked to see if it would happen or not? If so, then God is not sovereign.
    If God predestines us because he looks into the future to see if we will believe, then... - Top
    Then isn't He predestining us because He is seeing in us something that is motivating Him to save us? If our faith motivates God to save us, then it must have some merit in God's eyes, otherwise it would not motivate God to save us."
    Then God is looking into the future in order to learn. This would violate His attribute of omniscience. In other words, if God is looking into the future to see our choices, then this means God is constrained by time (otherwise He would not have to look into the future). The truth is that God is omniscient and knows all things all the time. He does not have to look anywhere, anytime to discover anything. To say that He looks into the future to see who would pick Him and then He predestines them is to say that God essentially is learning and adapting to the knowledge He gains in His future looking.


    Questions
    Is God's will thwarted by human free will?

    Is God's will limited by human free will?

    Can God fail at anything He intends to do?

    "God does not intend to bring about everything He values, but he never fails to bring about what He intends." (John Frame)

    Is the human will somehow independent of all other influences so as to be truly free?

    Is the human will somehow independent of human motivations?


    If God does not influence a person's will, so as to allow him total freedom of will, then how is it that God draws the person? In other words, the drawing of a person is an influence upon the will.

    Does the human will have the ability to overcome various influences so as to make a neutral, objective decision?

    If God foreknows what someone will do in the future, is that person then free to change his mind or not?

    Is the "free-willer" using the doctrine of complete freedom of will as a paradigm into which God's character and actions must fit?


    Logic
    God creates the person, the will of the person, and the body of the person since God is the one who forms us in the womb (Isaiah 44:2,24; Ecc. 11:5), etc.
    Since God knows all things, a person's free will is not outside God's knowledge.
    God puts that person in a particular place and time.

    Regarding the effectual call:

    From James Boyce Abstract of Systematic Theology The effectual call of these is due to the purpose and act of God. Matt. 11:25; Rom. 8:29, 30; Rom. 9:15, 16; 1 Cor. 1:26-31.

    8. The agent by which this is accomplished is the Holy Spirit by whose influences the saved are led to the exercise of repentance and faith. John 6:44, 46; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6.

    9. Such an agency is necessary to overcome the moral condition of man as "blind" and "dead in trespasses and sins." 1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:4; Eph. 2:1, 5.

    This is all derivative of an entire argument. Notice that Boyce does NOT refer to any confession of faith here, in keeping with Baptist tradition. I know of no Baptist in the U.S., SBC or IFB that would dare call James Boyce a poor expositor of God's Word. I refer you to his Abstract.

    Additionally, from my own speciality in historical, cultural, political studies in Western Civilization and the development of historical theology along with sociopolitical forces:

    With one exception (Calvin), Calvinistic theology tends to go AGAINST the cultural, social, economic political idiom of the times in which its greatest theologians write. With NO exception, Arminianism works with the cultural, social, and political idiom of the day in which its theologians write. Arminians without exception write in socieities in which individual liberty is the prevailing political, social, and economic philosophy. Their writing accords with those notions. Calvinistic writers on the other hand write within those same idioms, but their theology does not lend itself to that idiom. This shows a correlation between Arminianism and cultural idiom vs. Arminianism and Scripture itself. It shows that Calvinists tend to stick more with Scripture itself in their presentation of their systematic theology, not the other way around as some would have us believe.

    Those that reference confessions of faith come from traditions for which that is not a problem. Historically, it has always been acceptable for theologians to reference confessions and write them. Even Baptists use confessions. To allege that the use of a confession of faith is somehow "off limits" in a discussion of theology is, simply, absurd. I would point out that in his Abstract of Principles, James Boyce, the founder of Southern Seminary, uses Scripture, not the Westminster Confession to articulate his beliefs. The assertion that Calvinism is system of theology somehow "alient" to Scripture or "unBaptist" is simply absurd and ignorant, thus the continued reliance on logical fallacy like "guilt by association," "straw man," and "red herring," that so many nonCalvinstic Baptists use.

    [ October 01, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: GeneMBridges ]
     
  3. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    So this admits that man can receive the Gospel without God necessarily regenerating him first, but God places him in a place where he is less likely. (Perfect example, unevangelized lands).
    This contradicts the total inability ("he cannot do good, is a hater of God, is full of evil, etc."), you base your whole later argument on.
    But if God is drawing all,(John 12:32) then that would eliminate this total inability you describe.
    "Right thing to do"? What does that mean, and where does scripture discuss that as to why God commands what He Himself has withheld them the ability to do? This is just an attempt to justify what is basically a trap of unconditional reprobation or preterition. You're better off saying what other Calvinists say. This is just a means He uses to fashion them as "vessels of wrath". But instead, the Bible says that God offers a way of escape.
    He grants the ability, too. (Rom.7:19) The granting of ability, and the means of salvation (faith instead of works) is what is not of our will.
    Then there must be "something about that person" that made God choose him. There is no way to escape that. God chose this person, and not another. Why? "His good pleasure". But it is not just any person out of the masses. It is a particular person. If He chose someone else, that would not be this person, but God has declared that it is this person. You could say that He chose him just for being himself. But it's still "something about the person".
    True, but people are trying to "overintellectualize" as you denied, how God elects, foreknows, etc.; and the easiest way that sounds sovereign is "He chose this one and passed over that one and left him in His sins". Then, the "why's" you claim is the mystery. No, perhaps it;s the HOWS, as well, and that the Calvinists have overexplained it.
    But He does it anyway.
    And here is part of the overspeculation. You elsewhere stated two wills in God; one that can be thwarted and one that is not. The difference between Calvinists and Arminians is which the salvation of all or individuals falls in, and what His ultimate purpose is. His ultimate purpose is not thwarted, unless you think it hinges on particular individuals (and then once again, what was it about them that made Him choose them?)
    You criticize Ray for "guilt by association", but what you're doing here is basically the same thing--overgeneralizing. Not all Arminains are like that. Just like Calvinists have been accused of leading to nominalism, fatalism, lack of evengelistic zeal, etc. But I know that very few of you here are like that.
    And I've seen Calvinistic perseverance twisted to the point that you have to persevere through good works to be saved, (because if you don't make it, it proves God did not elect you, and even Calvin claimed God gave people false faith and took it away). So in practice, this is no different than those holiness churches that teach you can lose your salvation, and must work to keep it. So "perseverance" is the same as the "victory" of the Arminians. None of us are called to sit back and try to slide our way into heaven. So we all are on what the Bible calls a "race", whether you call it "victory" or "perseverance".
    That's not true. Just think of Arminius himself and others rising out of an almost entirely Calvinistic Reformation. And let's not forget the first 400 years before Augustine first proposed these ideas, when nobody argues these things, and people generally believed that anyone could believe and be saved. Once again, more guilt by association. Calvinism has been traced to cultural idiom as well. (Like Calvin's profession in Law). It reads things into scripture, and often interpretets by logic. (e.g. if God is sovereign, then He must select who is saved).

    Also, to answer the original question of the thread; this is all important to me, because while there is an "offense of the Gospel"; too often, many try to add to this offense more than is really apart of it, and rationalize that because it is "offensive", that there proves it's true. This dishonors the Gospel, and adds to it. The true offense of the Gospel is that we are sinners at all. This offends people by itself, and this is the sentiment reflected in Rom.9 "why does He yet find fault" (with is as we are; why must we believe to be saved). It has nothing to do with any "political, economic, cultural idoims". The good news is that salvation is offered to all, not just certain individuals.
     
  4. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Gene,

    We need to read of examples of Arminians who moved into Protestant liberalism. Your accusations appear merely to be name calling.

    When someone dies like pastor Spurgeon or Dr. Boice, did that sanctify somehow their trail of theological error? We respect the truth that they understood, preached and wrote about but inaccuracy must be checked wherever it is found.

    Why don't men like you deal with Mr. Camping because of his access to air time? I say this because he is among the camp of Five Point Calvinists. He is hardly a bright and morning star among your expositors.

    Regards . . .
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    As to Calvin believing this idea above, some people never factor into the equation, that God has sovereignly, ordained the free agency [Revelation 22:17f] of all human sinners created in the image of God. [James 3:9] Greek {homoiosin} 'resemblance' We are warned not to curse God because sinners are created after the likeness of the Triune Godhead. [James 3:9 a,b,c] As you might guess, this does not back the idea of Total Depravity; yes, humans are tained with Original Sin, but the Spirit of God is active in drawing sinners to Jesus, especially when they hear the Gospel unto salvation.
     
  6. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    "Therefore, if one recieves faith from God so that his eyes are opened leading him to believe and confess in the Lord Jesus Christ, assurance of salvtion is certain and sure!"

    But there is no test for "receiving faith from God."
     
  7. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    One need only look at the history of the majority of older Protestant denominations in order to trace the decline into liberalism. This is manifestly true. Arminianism's fatal flaw lies in the manward direction of its theology. It has only been through the reformulation of classic Arminianism into a more Calvinistic direction that evangelicalism has been able to take hold again in the mainline denominations. Evangelical Methodists and Wesleyans are historically modified Arminians, not classic Arminians. The Pentecostals (also Arminians) theologically rely on experience. This is a form of theological liberalism. Likewise KJVonlyism must resort to circular reasoning and experience based argumentation, also a form of theological liberalism, you need look only to the versions forum on this board for that. The Presbyterians headed to liberalism because of humanism that redefined the substitutionary work of Christ into the exemplary view and then went from there. That is a classically Finneyian viewpoint. Finney was Arminian. Southern Baptists embraced liberalism via moving away from historic Calvinism the same way. You need only look to the major figures in the Conservative Reformation for a list of pastors and theologians. With a very few exceptions like Adrian Rogers, you'll find that conservative Southern Baptists while rejecting limited atonement and irrestible grace do, in fact, hold to the other three points of Calvinist soteriology. You'll also find that where their seminaries began shifting in a conservative direction, there was a very definite recovery of Reformed perspectives. Southern Seminary is prime example.


    Why have I not dealt with Mr. Camping? Simply, Dr. Berrien, because that is a red herring and not the topic of the thread. I'm sure we can both find plenty of Arminians (cough, cough, Benny Hinn, cough, cough) and Calvinists with some odd teachings to say the least. However, I did notice you looked at matters of orthoPRAXY not orthoDOXY when you mentioned him. Want to discuss specific theologians and preachers? Start a thread on it. I'd rather not hijack this thread any further than this. There's a rousing one about Watchman Nee's questionable teachings up in the Baptist Theology forum right now. Perhaps you should consider starting one about Fielding.

    My issue with you is your misrepresentation what Calvinists believe about God, namely that our viewpoint leads to an arbitrary God who is partial, shows favoritism, and is unloving. That simply false.

    If we believed in an arbitrary God, then we would believe that election was without purpose. We do not. We believe the Bible that says we are chosen according to the good pleasure of God's will. Some of us pontificate further, others do not. I make no secret of the fact that I belive that and anything further on my part is just some thinking I've done. I have not claimed total accuracy beyond the classical affirmation. We believe election has a purpose. Arbitrary, by definition, includes purposelessness. Therefore, your charge is patently false.

    You say that we believe God is partial. No, ARMINIANS believe this, because to look into the future and see who will believe and won't believe not only requires that God look into the future to learn, but a God that grounds election in something that is within the individual being chosen himself. We disagree with that assessment, because, we believe that if God was to do that, he'd only find complete and utter corruption, not only no faith, but complete inabilty, and, if not inability, completely no desire whatsoever to chose Christ even if offered face to face by Jesus Himself. The reason for election, therefore, is within God and God alone. We believe that Scripture supports this notion, and we believe it, not because of some confession, but because it is taught by Scripture (see James Boyce). To do as Arminians suggest is favoritism and partiality, because the ground of election is placed in a quality inherent in the object of election not the Elector Himself. That is unjust, and therefore not loving, again, because it grounds election within man and not God. To do that is by definition favoritism. By saying otherwise, you are actually indirectly affirming a premise you deny, removing the ground of your argument. It is not favoritism or partiality if the actual ground is within the Elector Himself. It is partiality and favoritism if the ground of election is within the object being elected as an actuality or potentiality within that object.

    I have stated several reasons I find Calvinism as a system or a theological viewpoint more persuasive. If you wish to attack specific theologians, that is not the topic of this thread. I first replied to you because of your blatant misrepresentations of what we believe. If you disagree, fine, no problem, but please do not expect loaded language like "arbitrary, unloving, partial, and favoritism" to go unchallenged when they are used as connotative terms that do not accurately portray what Calvinists believe.
     
  8. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Bill,

    If by test you mean assurance, Calvin is saying that the test or ground of faith/assurance is "looking to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins."

    Faith, for Calvin, is a fully persuaded heart. By heart he means mind.

    You know that you are the elect because faith has caused you to look to Jesus for forgiveness.

    For Calvin, this faith that fully persuades, also produces repentance.
     
  9. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Gene,

    Your point about God not being arbitrary if he elects according to his good pleasure is well taken. If God elects according to his plan or purpose, then it can't be arbitrary, even if we don't understand it, because it is purposeful.

    Good insight. Thanks.

    The "good pleasure" language and the Westminster Confession language of "pleases" bothers me because it makes it sound like God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked, which we know isn't true. "Pleases" makes it sound like God nonchalantly passes over others because he pleases to, is happy to, again something we know isn't true. God grieves over lost souls. I know that we all agree with this. The language is misleading. By the way, I don't see anything in Scripture that says God reprobates according to his good pleasure. Only that he saves us according to his pleasure and will.

    The NASB removes the offending language of "pleasure" by translating it as "kind intention."

    In speaking of the process of salvation, Paul uses these kinds of phrases:

    Eph. 1:4 - according to the kind intention of his will

    Eph. 1:7 - according to the riches of his grace which he lavished on us.

    Eph. 1:9 - according to his kind intention

    Eph. 1:11 - according to his purpose who works all things after the counsel of his will

    Clearly God elects according to his kind intention, will, grace, and counsel.

    Ray, makes an excellent point, though, when he criticizes Calvinists for saying God elects according to his sovereignty, and beyond that it's a mystery.

    We can go a little farther than Calvin and Calvinism because the Bible goes a little farther than Calvin and the Westminster Confession.

    The Bible clearly teaches that God elects on the basis of his foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:2). It would appear that foreknowledge precedes election. At least that's how I understand language.

    Romans 8:29-30 gives us an order that begins with "To those whom God foreknew." God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified. Whatever foreknowledge is, and whatever God foreknew, it's first in the order. We can debate it's meaning, but I'm very uncomfortable when folks interpret foreknowledge to be something that takes place after foreordination (predestination) like Boettner does.

    The above list isn't complete. It leaves out sanctification and election. We know where sanctification fits into the process. Where does election fit in? I would think that it fits in between "foreknew" and "predestined."

    Ephesians 1:4 says that "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love he predestined us to adoption as sons . . . "
    It appears that election precedes predestination and predestinatin precedes adoption. Again that's how I understand language to work.

    Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology wasn't any help because he starts with election and moves on to call without dealing with foreknowledge and predestination.

    Therefore I suggest the following order of salvation.

    God:
    foreknew us
    elected us
    predestined us
    adopted us
    called us
    justified us
    sanctified us
    glorified us

    I didn't add regeneration and conversion because they are not in the list and aren't mentioned in the three texts cited, aren't germane to the discussion, and you might not agree with where I put them, so let's just leave them out for now. But they probably follow "called us."

    Therefore in the sovereign plan of God, we are elected according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2).

    God foreknew us, and because he foreknew us he elected us, and because he elected us, he predestined us (foreordained us) to be adopted, and because he adopted us, he called us, etc.

    So the million dollar question is, "What is foreknowledge?" or "Why did God foreknow us?"

    As an answer, it is not legitimate to say, "God can only foreknow what he foreordains" because that changes the order. I have not defined foreknowledge, but however we define it, it cannot change the order given above, unless my understanding of the order is wrong.
     
  10. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Gene,

    Jonathan Edwards, Freedom of the Will

    Part 1, Section 1

    "And therefore I observe, that the Will (without any metaphysical refining) is, That by which the mind chooses any thing. The faculty of the will, is that power, or principle of mind, by which it is capable of choosing: an act of the will is the same as an act of choosing or choice."

    "A man never, in any instance, wills any thing contrary to his desires, or desires any thing contrary to his will."

    "So that in every act, or going forth of the Will; there is some preponderation of the mind, one way rather than another; and the soul had rather have or do one thing, than another, or than not to have or do that thing; and that where there is absolutely no preferring or choosing, but a perfect, continuing equilibrium, there is no volition."

    My thoughts: If there is no volition, God is able to draw me to himself. If there is a negative volition of resistance, God will pass over. There can be no positive volition of response in classic calvinism, so I won't posit one.

    But if I could posit one, according to Edwards, there would be no volition if my desire to be drawn to Christ and my desire not to be drawn to Christ were in equilibrium.

    If it is possible that I could be in a state of no volition in regards to Christ drawing me, then we could at least say that Christ drew me to himself because I did not resist.

    One thing we might need to factor in is the fact that Christ lifted up exerts influence on man's will by initiating the drawing. Christ's drawing influences man's desire positively and offset's man's propensity and desire to move away from God. So in some people, equilibrium is reached and God's drawing in Christ effectively lands these people in Christ so that God can foreknow them in Christ and choose them!

    One thing the Scriptures do teach is that, at least in time, a stubborn and unrepentant heart is the sign of one who is passed over.

    Those who actively resist God store up wrath.

    Romans 2:5 - But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

    Some men, despite the positive counteracting influence of Christ's drawing upon their desires resist all the more, do not reach the state of equilibrium and are not found to be in Christ because of their stubborness. Therefore they are not foreknown by God, and are not elected.
     
  11. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    In real time, God implores everyone to repent and believe. He is gracious and loving. The elect will hear the gospel and respond with faith, a faith that God gives them. The non-elect will harden their hearts in unbelief. They may or may not hear the gospel, but it is irrelevant in the sense that God is not obligated to present the gospel to those he does not foreknow in Christ.

    Perhaps this is why is says, many are called but few are chosen. Some never hear the gospel, some do and reject, some hear and respond. All are not called because some don't hear the gospel. Many are called, some are chosen.

    This solves the problem of the pagan who has never heard. If he is the elect, God will make certain that he is called, even if he has to send an angel. If he is the non-elect, he may or may not hear the gospel, but even if he does, he will still reject.
     
  12. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Don,

    A couple possibilties on two things that you may want to consider (Note, I may or may not believe all or part of this, but I am presenting them to you as some ideas I know are sometimes presented in relationship to foreknowledge):

    I think we have to say that the Bible teaches that God foreknows US, nothing further. To
    go further, exegetically or expositorily as Arminians do is to go beyond the text. The
    text never says He looks into time and foreknows faith, e.g. the quality of faith or as
    some say, "God knows ahead of time who will believe and won't believe, therefore (KEY WORD,
    THEREFORE) He elects those persons to eternal life and passes over the rest. (Which is what
    the classic Arminian view of foreknowledge says of Romans 8:29 and 30). That is favoritism
    and partiality which both Arminians and Calvinists seek to reject. (However, as I contend, Arminians must embrace that premise if that is the thing on which foreknowledge is based). If foreknowledge (eg. that which God foreknows) is simply our existence, we must be careful not to ground presdestination even in our existence. FOREKNOWLEDGE could simply be the
    foreknowledge of our existence, which is something else for which He arranged and so
    predestined, in the sense that He arranged our individual existence in eternity past.

    Predestination unto eternal life, in the soteriological sense, (vs. a simple existential
    sense) then, because it is held to be unconditional, still can't be grounded (notice the word "grounded" this is the hinge of the statement) in our existence (the quality of existence itself being a necessary condition to election as a type of merit, however small), it is grounded in God's purpose in arranging our existence, finding the ground election itself then to be unconditional viz a viz the anthropological, conditional viz a viz the theological (eg. found in God alone). Since the text says only that God predestines according to His kind intention, and does not ground that act even in the quality of our existence itself (existence being an inherent quality or "merit") is still, IMO, going beyond the text itself. The text clearly grounds predestination in God
    Himself not in anything in us, even our existence. Because our existence is something that is controlled and arranged itself, then we can say that foreknowledge can be existential on
    the one hand, but still grounded in God Himself. It's a very subtle shade if you look at
    existence as meritorious in and of itself. Again, just a thought. Maybe Calvin, Edwards,
    Boyce, et.al. didn't go much further because when you start getting that subtle it gets
    incredibly fiddley (one of my favorite words). I mean, I'm good at logic, but I can't
    handle block transfer computation and quantum dynamics, even in theology. Thus, I'm
    content with the Edwards/Boyce views on the matter, because I think they do the best
    justice. (And for interested readers, I've been doing systematic theology since high school, and I am well beyond high school, and I started as an IFB Arminian at that LOL).


    Secondly,

    I'm with you until this part:

    Some men, despite the positive counteracting influence of Christ's drawing upon their
    desires resist all the more, do not reach the state of equilibrium and are not found to be
    in Christ because of their stubborness. Therefore they are not foreknown by God, and are
    not elected. I would still argue that as a valid point only in that their stubborness is evidence that they are passed over. They are drawn with regard to the general call, but not to that call
    or particular drawing that, in the classic sense, you are calling equilibrium, or that I,
    as I prefer Edwards' view, would say enables that person to believe. It is manifestly true
    from Scripture that even the silent testimony of a Christian life can be a positive
    influence, a general call, (salt and light) as well as the actual proclamation of the
    gospel. On this we all agree. However, in the particular sense as James Boyce wrote,
    stubbornness would be evidence of no particular calling. "Depart from me, ye evil doers, I
    never knew you." In other words, they were foreknown in terms of their very existence, for
    nothing exists that supercedes God's awareness or arrangement of its existence; at the same
    time, there are those things that exist to which God claims no personal relationship at
    all. Soteriologically, these are called yet simultaneously not called, for them no
    redemption is secured, for if it is secured, they would be saved, but that's a whole other
    thread.

    Again, salient points on your part. Good thinking.

    That said, with all due respect, I think we've chased the trail and this thread has strayed
    waaaay off topic. I only posted here to you because you asked questions...good ones mind
    you, but I think that, perhaps, going to another thread so as to respect the original poster's intent is in order. You can always PM me or email me too.

    Have a good weekend
     
  13. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Hi Gene,

    Humor me just a little more.

    My argument is made with the understanding that this all takes place in the council of God's will before he creates anything.

    His foreknowledge is not grounded in our existence because we do not yet exist. Rather, it is grounded in the council of his will. As God, he knows all of the ramifications of any potential decree he could will.

    If he wills a universe where man has free will and falls, then he knows all of the possibilities that could derive from that decree. If he decrees that Christ lifted up will draw all men to himself, he knows all of the possibilities that could derive from that decree.

    When I speak of men, their desires, the drawing of Christ, I am speaking about what God knows in the council of his will regarding potential possibilities; not actual men in time and space.

    With that said, what do you think?
     
  14. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Ok, I've gotcha now, Don. Salient points...

    But what do you do with the idea that there is no "before we exist" and "after we exist" (as humans in time and space to God), for whom all events are occuring with simultaneity for all eternity. ;) [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Sorry, just had to throw some quantum theory into the mix (ala Thomas Oden)!

    Seriously, as long as we're talking a firm ground in the mind of God alone, our existence being an event arranged and provided/accounted for, I get what you're saying, because the ultimate ground, not the contingent ground lies in God alone and not anything inherent as a quality of man, even the most base quality of simple existence.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    billwald,

    Your first paragraph is totally inverted, but I will speak to this issue in the above quote.

    God does not give out faith; faith is a human response to the calling of the Lord God. God offers grace to the unsaved as stated in Ephesians 2:8. Grace is the gift of God. When the sinner receives said gift, he has placed his or her faith in Jesus Christ.

    We cannot participate in our salvation, because it is ' . . . not of works, lest any person should boast.'

    Calvinists try to assure us that faith comes from God to His prized elect. The Bible declares the fact that men and women have faith in Jesus Christ. It is our response and responsibility to believe on the Son, when the call of God comes.

    The Apostle Peter clearly depicts faith as coming from he human agency. 'That the trial of your faith . . .; Receiving the end of your faith . . . ; and ' . . . that your faith and hope might be in God.' (I Peter 1:7,9,21)

    It's time to clean up your theologial perceptions.
     
  16. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Ray,
    Hey. you wrote the following:

    Calvinism has come out of the ancestoral findings of St. Augustine who spent more time studying Plato and Aristotle than the books of the Bible. He adopted the secular ideas of the First Cause and impersonal being and then the newly saved Roman Catholic, John Calvin systematized his fraudulant conceptuallizations.

    Me: You quoted many scriptures that I wander if you have discussed on this board before (2 Tim. 2, etc.). If not, I would be glad to discuss them with you. I would assume that you have a 'traditional' rather than a contextual interpretation of these verses. Also, unless John Calvin wrote John 6:37, it's wrong to imply (if that is what you were doing) that John Calvin did not get election from the Bible but somehow invented it along with Augustine. My point is, you can attack Calvin, Augustine, or whoever but unless you deal with the text of scripture such as John 6:37, it really does not matter who or what Calvin believed because I do not get my beliefs from Calvin, but inspired scripture.

    In Christ
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    'Calvinists David Steele and Curtis Thomas point out that 'The basic doctrines of the Calvinistic position had been vigorously defended by Augustine against Pelagius during the fifth century.'
    Drs. David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas, "The Five Points of Calvinism" {Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1963, p.19.

    C.H. Spurgeon admitted that 'perhaps Calvin himself derived it {Calvinism} mainly from the writings of Augustine.' "Charles Haddon Spurgeon, ed., "Exposition of the Doctrine of Grace" Pilgrim Publications, n.d., p.298.

    Alvin L. Baker wrote, 'There is hardly a doctrine of Calvin that does not bear the marks of Augustine's influence.' Dr. Alvin L. Baker, "Berkouwer's Doctrine of Election: Balance or Imbalance?" {Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1981, p. 25.

    C. Gregg Singer said, 'The main features of Calvin's theology are found in the writings of Augustine to such an extent that many theologians regard Calvinism as a more fully developed form of Augustinianism.' Dr. C. Gregg Singer "John Calvin: His Roots and Fruits" (A Press), 1989, VII

    Frend says of Augustine, 'The questing, sensitive youth had become the father of the inquisition.' Dr. Frend, W.H.C., "The Rise of Christianity" Fortress Press, 1984, p. 672.

    'Though he preferred persuasion if possible, Augustine supported the death penalty for those who were rebaptized as believers after conversion to Christ and for other alleged heretics.'
    Dave Hunt, "What Love Is This" {Loyal} p. 47.

    'John Calvin rubber stamped what his mentor believed, both being Roman Catholic in background, though separated in time by 1,200 years.' Dr. I. Ray Berrian.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You are correct - it matters, it describes God, it describes God's character as either loving or arbitrary depending on the view you take.

    It is important to ministry because declaring a loving God is more effective in ministry than declaring an arbitrarily selective God who "likely did not select you". This is why even Calvinists are forced to preach the Arminian doctrine and then excuse their actions by saying "it is the only way that works. So we will tell our converts about Calvinism later".

    In Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]
    That is simply not true.

    The arbitrary nature of Calvinism is made quite clear as IT insists that NOTHING about the one selected determines selection. Nothing in their future and nothing about their choices, ability etc. The whole point of Calvinism is that the FEW of MATT 7 are chosen - elect - "selected" NOT based on ANY attribute in and of themselves.

    To seek to find a "reason" why one should be chosen and another NOT - is to deny Calvinism. God alone is sovereign in Calvinism and NOT obligated to CHOOSE any one lost person to be the elect for some "reason" that you might imagine.

    This is "arbitrary selection" in it's purest form. Selecting out of a group of equals where members are selected without any regard at all to any attribute of the selected member.

    This is the purest form of the concept of arbitrary selection.

    You turn this around saying that IF God "does something" with those arbitrarily selected - then it can not be arbitrary. That is a contrived and creative manipulation of the term that has no support in logic.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This contrast "Again" is not true.

    Arminians (like me) fully accept the total depravity of mankind and argue that choice is ONLY possible due to the supernatural DRAWING of God "Drawing ALL MANKIND to Himself" John 12:32.

    Even Calvinists admit that this "Drawing" enables that which TD disables by way of choosing life.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is another flaw in Calvinism. It "assumes" that God "can not draw" the lost without FIRST making them "regenerate born again saints".

    The arguments of Calvinism in the form "yes but God CAN NOT.." typically fail.


    In fact this is never the case. Calvinism never proclaims itself in evangelism.

    And as for Arminians ---
    As Paul said "WE BEG you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

    Calvinists never stand up and say "We are going to skip the message today - I will simply command you to be saved!".

    Calvinists never stand up and say "We have no idea who God loves here today, who He died for and who He is willing to save. What we DO know is that NOTHING I say and NOTHING you choose here today will change what is to happen in any way. So let us watch what happens in silence".

    Calvinism NEVER says "In Matt 7 it is the FEW that are on the road to eternal life and the MANY that are not elect, not chosen and that end up in hell. Therefore it is likely that here today God does NOT love most of you and did NOT die for the majority here. He only died for the FEW and that means that on average - it is NOT you".


    I find that hard to believe.

    Arminians start with the Cross and Christ AS Creator (John 1) and this is the basis for all the enabling etc. They simply do not deny the Romans 6, Romans 8, 1 John 2 call to follow Christ in walking as He walked.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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