The Imputation

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Jun 22, 2003.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Question... It states in Matthew that Jesus Christ came into the world to save his people... Were his people saved on the cross and his saving of them fully realized in his resurrection on the third day?... What actually was meant in his words... IT IS FINISHED!... What was Finished?

    Were we not really saved on the cross by his sacrifice and death at the time of that death?... If not then what was finished?... Are we not also saved in time by the imputed blood of Jesus Christ not by our acceptance of it and all it stands for but by the finished work of Jesus Christ only?

    How can the polluted sinful depraved man receive the imputed blood of Jesus Christ... The blood is holy and sinless he is not... He must be changed in his entire being though still a sinner fit for the Masters use... Apostle Paul claims nothing else... If it were not so why would he claim it?... Was it because he knew the finished work of Jesus Christ was all that was needed?... Why would he make the comment... I know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified if he was waiting for the imputation of the blood?

    Did Saul have the imputation of the blood of Jesus Christ while under the law on the Damascus road?... What of Nicodemus before he was born again?... Is the born again the exact moment of that imputation or is the born again the realization of the imputation that is already there?... What of John The Baptist was the imputation in the womb and if it was who is to say that our imputation cannot also be in the womb?

    What of the elect babies who die before seeing life... If life begans at conception when does their imputation take place?... Since God is God it is really no ones business but his. Since their imputation takes place and they never see life could not ours also take place before we are born in the world?... The imputation not the realization of it?... Can someone have the imputation and not know it?... If not do babies who die before the light of day know theirs?

    Where does the gospel and the preacher fit into the equation of the imputation?... If we are commanded to feed sheep and not make them does the written gospel or the preacher effect those in being imputed or not being imputed?... What if the Bible is never preached does that effect those imputed who never heard it?... Is the imputation applied when called or the realization of the imputation?

    If someone does not have the imputation they are never called... Is there an act that the sinner must do to receive the imputation and if he does wouldn't that make the finished work of Jesus Christ null and void if it was left in the sinners hands?... If so where does the Holy Spirit fit in the equation of the imputation?... If one is called who is imputed what if he does not answer does that make the imputation of none effect?... What of the Jews that were blinded were they also not imputed seeing that they were Gods people even though they were enemies to the gospel?... Were they not also embraced in the finished work of Jesus Christ. If not then why does God call them his?... Since Jews and Gentiles are all embraced in unbelief according to the Roman letter do you have to believe to become imputed or is the finished work of Jesus Christ all that is needed... Seeing the Holy Spirit imputes the elect and no one else?... So what is the finished work of Jesus Christ?... What is the highth... the depth... and the expanse of the imputation of the blood of the lamb of God on his sheep... Those who are his grace wrought... blood bought children?... Brother Glen :cool:

    [ June 22, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  2. Frogman

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    Is the born again the exact moment of that imputation or...
    I believe the experience of being born again is the realization in the individual by the Holy Spirit revealing to that person the truth of the imputation of Christ's Righteousness in eternity past.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 26.53-58
     
  3. Bartholomew

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    Brother Glen, are you saying that someone is saved before he believes the gospel? Before he is born again?
     
  4. Harald

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    With respect to these things the word of God teaches, among other things, that...

    "Born again" is nowhere in the Bible said to be an experience, nor by way of inference can such be gleaned therefrom. And experience is something one experiences. Regeneration is not experienced. An example of people who continuously refer to "born again" as an experience would be charismatics. They are such who can pinpoint the exact minute or hour of their claimed "born again experience". Such people are deceived and manifestly ignorant of the truth. Regeneration having taken place in a person (by the Spirit of God operating secretly) is in due time realized by its manifest fruits. The Bible lists many of the fruits of regeneration. An example would be the beginning of Matt. chapter 5.

    3. Blessed are the destitute in the spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.
    4. Blessed are the mourning ones, for they shall be comforted.
    5. Blessed are the humble, for they shall inherit the earth.
    6. Blessed are those hungering and thirsting for the righteousness, for they shall be filled.

    The undeservedly regenerated individual at the latest gains assurance and certainty of eternal life being his portion at the point of the true Gospel of grace coming into his heart and mind and conscience in power and in Holy Spirit, 1Thess. 1:4-6. In some other place the Bible teaches that Christ brought life and immortality or incorruptibility to light to His people by means of the Gospel. Not that the Gospel is the means of imparting life, but that Christ brought life to light by it. The Bible does not teach the error of Gospel regeneration. Persistency in the error of gospel regeneration IMO clearly constitutes heresy. The Gospel revealed in the Bible does not impart a knowledge of justification having taken place before the world began or in eternity when it is applied by the Spirit of Christ in resurrection power in conversion. The Bible Gospel is Calvary- or cross-centered time-wise, not before-the-foundation-of-the-world-centered, time-wise. The evangelical false gospel is centered in justification before God's bar of justice occuring at the point of subjective faith being acted Christ-ward. Such an act of faith is an example of "believing in vain", 1Cor. 15:2. Proponents of said perverse gospel may say things like "when you believe on Jesus Christ God will justify you". This notion contradicts many revealed Scriptures, e.g. Rom. 3:24, and Rom. 5:19, and Rom. 4:25 etc. A doctrine of justification which is unable to harmonize all of the teaching of the Bible respecting justification in all its bearings is unbiblical and thus erroneous and heretical.

    As for God in time regenerating His elect sheep some wiser man of the past said that the Spirit of God always operates under the imputed righteousness of Christ. This harmonizes with the fact of justification before God being a "justification of life", Rom. 5:18. Meaning that regeneration by the Spirit of Christ is always subordinate to the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness, which must have preeminence. Where Christ's righteousness has not been divinely imputed there can be no quickening by the divine Spirit. And where there has been no quickening by the Spirit there often abounds all kinds of unbiblical notions respecting vital points of doctrine. This is solemn indeed to contemplate. Christendom today is a very sad and deplorable thing. It seems like God the Lord is very much withholding His reviving and quickening influences, and His power. Apostasy is abounding all around, round and about. The teachers and prophets that be are running unsent. Paul also warned of such when he wrote to Timothy, 2Tim. 3:1 ff.

    3:1 And know thou this, that in the last days grievous times will be at hand!
    3:2 For the men shall be self-loving, money-loving, presumptuous boasters, arrogant, blaspheming, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    3:3 Without affection to kindred, implacable, slanderous, incontinent, ungentle, void of love for what is good,
    3:4 Betrayers, headlong, having been besotted with pride, pleasure-loving rather than God-loving,
    3:5 Ones having a form of godliness, yet having denied the power of it through contradiction. Be thou turning away thyself also from these!
    3:6 For from among these are the ones entering into the homes, and captivating the silly women having been ladened with sins, being led along by divers lusts,
    3:7 Ever learning and never being able to come unto full knowledge of the truth.
    3:8 And in what manner Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, on this wise also these are opposing themselves to the truth, men having been utterly corrupted in the mind, reprobate concerning the faith;
    3:9 But however they shall not advance further, for their *folly shall be fully manifest to all, as also that of those two became.

    May God put forth His power to the end His word may be a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. And may He be pleased to bring forth the precious from the vile like as in days of old. Amen.

    Harald
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Clue! No one is saved by the cross, the cross is a killing device. To our knowledge, no one came down from the cross alive! There is no salvation in death!

    Jesus, when dying said, "IT IS FINISHED!" Meaning that the final piece of the puzzle is now in place, ATONEMENT for the sins of the world was accomplished by Jesus' death. Atonement for sins is the reason Jesus had to die on the cross, and is in reality the reason he was sent to dwell among us. He is, afterall, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Atonement is not salvation! No one was saved because of the death of Jesus on the Cross! But Atonement enables Salvation by paying the penalty for sin so that we are not judged not-salvific by sin. Consider that ones' sins may be greater that another's sins. Does that not set up a condition for boasting?

    Jesus, while living told us that salvation is by believing in Him alone. Faith is a condition for which there can be no boasting, whether boasting be related to sins, or works. Whether it be, "I was saved from worse sins than you!", or, "I did greater works than you"! Those sound the same to God! It is human boasting. But If you are saved by Faith under Grace, what have you to boast about? All who are saved are saved by the same amount of Grace, the same amount of faith, the same Savior. There is then, not one thing that man can boast about! Man did nothing to obtain salvation except believe in Jesus and accept, as one accepts a gift, that which Jesus did for us. Neither 'believing' nor 'accepting' are works that man does, they are conditions of receiving from God. No, man does not have to be "preconditioned" by regeneration in order to believe or accept. Once one believes and accepts, he is then ready to be regenerated, that is, made into a new creation. One who is wholly acceptable unto God, because it is God who does the regenerating!

    Jesus said, "Whosoever believeth..." then clearly stated that those who do believe are not judged, but those who do not believe are judged already by their unbelief. Not one mention of blood, not one mention of death, not one mention of works, etc. For while God's grace prevails, we are saved through our faith in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah. When will we all finally accept that Jesus is truly the Son of God, the Messiah, and therefore accept HIS words in lieu of the words of all who try to explain Him?

    There is nothing to be "imputed", except the truth revealed to us by God's Holy Word. It is that "imputed truth", quickened within us by the Holy Spirit, that persuades us to believe in Jesus unto our salvation.

    Jesus said that it is so simple as to confound the wise. KISS...Keep it simple, stupid! The Gospel message is, in its simplest form, strong enough to overcome the greatest wisdom, and the strongest resistance of those willing to hear.
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    So are you saying that for someone to be born again they need to hear the gospel?... The written gospel?... I have a deaf son age 22 what are you going to do with him?... Is he eliminated because he can't hear the gospel?... Wouldn't that make God a respecter of persons?... Maybe a better exercise would be what gospel saves you... The written or something else?... Primitive Baptist which I am believe in Spiritual Regeneration... Gospel Regeneration?... I believe the gospel saves you from error but the only gospel that saves eternally hung between two thieves on a Roman cross... That is the only gospel that saved me... Question which one of the written gospels saves you eternally :confused: ... The KJV or the updated MV's... Pick one!... To each his own!... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
  7. Gunther

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    Salvation was not finished on the cross. That is not what Christ meant by, "It is finished". How do we know that? Because in Rom. 4:26, it says:

    He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

    There is no salvation apart from the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Therefore, salvation could not have been done yet.
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    From whose eye... The eye of mankind or the all seeing eye of Almighty God... God seeing the end from the beginning and those things not yet done saying my counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure!... In the death of Jesus Christ was the resurrection just an afterthought or a done deal... Waiting for the affirmation according to the OT... The story of Jonah!... It was a done deal in eternity before man ever graced the earth... Read Romans 8:28-30... Saved on the cross and the affirmation of the Father that the Son did his Will is he raised him from the grave and all he saved... I don't know about others but I'm just waiting for my Salvation to be realized in heaven!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  9. Frogman

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    to wit the redemption of our bodies...Amen brother.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 26.53-58
     
  10. tyndale1946

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    I'll double your AMEN! [​IMG] [​IMG] ... And raise you another AMEN! [​IMG] ... Brother Dallas!... You other brethren just wander around in the darkness!... No thank you!... Been there!... Done that!... One OSAS Primitive Baptist and very few like us... When we sing AMAZING GRACE we know what it means!... And it means what it says! [​IMG] ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  11. Bartholomew

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    Yes! You need to BELIEVE on Christ to be born again!

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John1:12)

    And how can they believe in him, except they know the gospel (i.e. that Jesus is the only way to save them)?

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans10:13&14)

    Whether they find this out from hearing or reading or brail or whatever, what matters is believing on him, and calling upon his name!
    Surely "the gospel" is ABOUT Jesus; it is not Jesus himself? Mark 1:1 says "the gospel of Jesus Christ" - not "the gospel called Jesus Christ"!!! :confused:
    Jesus saved me. But that was only after I was told about his death and resurection, and I believed it. Are you and Harald seriously advocating that someone is saved before he believes? If this is so, why does the scripture say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shlt be saved"? Or, "whosever believeth in him should not perish"? Or, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith"? I have met many Calvinists, but never any that argue salvation comes apart from faith. Surely this is a false gospel? :eek:
     
  12. tyndale1946

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    First of all I'm not a Calvinist I'm a Primitive Baptist... I believe in the FAITH of Jesus Christ... That is the only thing that saves eternally... Not my faith in the faith!... My faith in the faith only saves me from error that I have the ability by my own actions, decision or choice to apprehend that FAITH!

    The Jews spoken of in Romans were enemies to the gospel... They couldn't believe the gospel because they were blinded by the Law worship which they would not let go of. Yet the scriptures state they were beloved for the Fathers sake... If they were lost eternally because they wouldn't or couldn't believe the gospel how are they beloved?... It seems to me the scriptures would say they are cursed and fit for the fires of hell... It doesn't say that!

    Salvation is not always for the hereafter... There is salvations for Gods children here and now in the here and now.... Heaven and hell are not always later... There are heavens and hells right now for Gods people in this life... If you don't believe it look around you at the rejoicing and suffering going on now.

    If judgement begins at the house of God what are Gods children being judged for?... And if they are judged can they possibly lose their eternal life?... They may lose the joys and blessings of their Salvation in time but never their eternal salvation... Primitive Baptist which I am a member believe in a timely and an eternal Salvation... One you control as you live in the world and follow God according to your walk... The other was given to all Gods children as a gift because of the walk of Jesus Christ because they were unable to walk were Jesus Christ walked!... That is what I believe and where I stand!... To each his own!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  13. Bartholomew

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    Sorry - I didn't mean to offend you, Brother Glen! :D ;)
    So do you think that such verses as John 3:16 do not refer to eternal salvation? After all, it says "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" - which is obviously a reference to the belief of the individual.
    Are you refering to Romans 11:28? As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. If you read it in context, surely it's saying that Israel were blinded so as to bring the gospel to the gentiles ("enemies for your sakes"), but that God has still chosen that all Israel will be saved, and that they will be "grafted in" again ("beloved for the father's sakes")?
    I think I know what you mean - like when the Christians in Corinth got ill and died for doing the Lord's Supper unworthily? But surely you don't believe that good and bad cirmcumstances are always results of good or bad actions? After all, Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
    Brother Glen, we had this discussion some time ago in the Theology section, and I don't want to hijack this thread to talk about that. However, I'll answer your question: they are judged for their works: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10)
    I agree. But I think they can lose their place in the kingdom.

    [ June 24, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Bartholomew ]
     
  14. tyndale1946

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    If you are talking about an eternal kingdom are there degrees there?... I as a Primitive Baptist don't think so... Is one brother or sister crown going to be bigger than the other one?... Maybe I will have a 50 room mansion while Frogman has a 100 room?... Maybe my crown will be two feet tall and if perchance the pope makes it will he wear a beanie with a propellar [​IMG] ... No everyone will have the same inheritance in heaven and Jesus Christ will be the focus of it all... HE WILL HAVE PREIMINENCE!... Degrees in heaven?... You must have heaven confused with Dante's Infurno :eek: ... Sorry for the levity but you are cracking this brother up!... I couldn't resist poking fun!... If the Catholics ever read this break out the tar and feathers!... GET THAT HERETIC! :D ... Just being Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ June 24, 2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  15. Frogman

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    Brethren, just a few thoughts concerning our heavenly mansion(s).

    in verse two above 'house' we have:

    oikia
    oy-kee'-ah
    From G3624; properly residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics): - home, house (-hold).


    note: abstractly-- a residence
    note: concretely-- an abode; the abode of God and note below these is given this is literally or figuratively and by implication a family--(especially domestics).

    I believe these things would teach in accordance with what Bro. Glenn has stated.

    Having said these things, I will add, in heaven is where the family of God from all ages shall gather.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 26.53-58
     
  16. Gunther

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    Tyndale, I gave a reasonable answer to your claim that salvation was accomplished on the cross.

    You did not deal with anything I said and proceeded to imply I am in darkness.

    If that is what debate is, then I will refrain.
     
  17. tyndale1946

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    Gunther I apologize but I was just giving my opinion... I might be wandering around in darkness according to some on here!... Like I say to each his own... Don't take things I say in a personal way... I don't intend them to be personal but doctrinal!... If I've offended you I apologize... Oh no I here the footsteps of Pastor Larry... Now I'm really in for it!... Well I'll just take my medicine like a good Primitive Baptist even if it is bitter!... Brother Glen :eek:
     
  18. Bartholomew

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    Hi brother Glen! [​IMG] No, I wasn't actually talking about heaven, but about Christ's millennial kingdom. I believe many Chrsitians will be prevented from entering and banished for the duration of the 1000 years. But that's another issue, for another thread. ;) :D
     
  19. Frogman

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    Bartholomew,
    I think you make a good point. I also believe in the millenial reign of Christ; but I view this time as a period of rewards and this dependent upon several factors. I don't think that Christians will be banished from this kingdom whose city will be New Jerusalem. But I do think nationally this will be seen accomplished among the nations.

    But these things require more study than what I have been able to give to them of late.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
    Matt. 26.53-58 [​IMG]
     
  20. Yelsew

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    Frogman, How can that be? The New Jerusalem does not appear until after this heaven and earth pass away and the New Heaven and Earth are established.

    The millenial reign of Jesus will take place on this present heaven and earth.

    Bartholomew, The millenial reign of the Christ will not exclude any who are living on the earth and those that Jesus brings back with him to reign with him. Every creature on the earth will be subject to Jesus the Christ.

    There will be many who do not come back with the Christ, but they are those who died not believing in Jesus. They will remain in waiting for the resurrection unto judgment! And yes, there will be those who will not believe in Jesus while he is reigning on this earth. Who will also be judged.
     

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