The Interpretation of John 8:1-11

In discussing the Narrow Way, Jesus referred to righteous and Spirit-motivated behaviour, not doctrinal edifices, or denominations.

It is well to remember that the Pharisees, the largest group (denomination) Jesus singled out for censure and condemnation, were exclusivists and elitists, their very name "Pharisee" (Heb: 'Pharsinim' see Daniel's writing on the wall...) literally meaning "Separatist".


In any case, it is interesting you focussed in on the remark about 'off-topic', only to stay off-topic.

I hope you'll widen your path enough to allow the topic of the thread to enter.

I am looking forward to your on-topic remarks.

Peace,
Nazaroo

 

Again you are way off-topic. Did you read the thread at all?

There is no mystery here in any case.


I was born an Anglican.

I was raised an atheist.

I was baptized in a public fountain by heretics who wanted to also circumcize me.

I was churched in a Baptist church.

I took lifetime Nazarite vows.

I'm still alive, Anglican, Nazarite, Baptized, and probably have as many doctrinal blindspots as you do.

But for your information, since you haven't figured this out yet, there are many internet surfers named "Nazaroo"; in fact at least a dozen from our own website.

Peace,
Nazaroo #0138430948103-481349871

 

Finally on topic! Congratulations, brother.


This passage is one of the most important passages in the New Testament. On the one hand, it is the entire Gospel in miniature. On the other, it is a prophecy concerning both Israel and the Church.

But there's more: It is also the keystone of John, both theologically and structurally.

Its been attacked multiple times both in ancient days, and today as well.


Many who think they are doing God a service are in fact opposing Him.

Many who seek to hide their own sins would erase this convicting passage too.

Many who 'say they are Jews but are of the Synagogue of Satan' would destroy all evidence of these verses.


Let us begin with John's Gospel: Is it really the most important passage in John?

What does John himself tell us?

http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/CHARTS/OTQ-John.jpg

(Edited to remove oversized image.)

 

But how can we be sure that it is really John 8:1-11 that John's Gospel structure is meant to draw our attention to?

Can't we remove it and still have an OT quotation structure pointing to something important?


Lets just see how deeply embedded John 8:1-11 is into John. For those who reject it have an alternate explanation: They say that it was an 'accidental insertion' by some scribe or copyist, that found its way by mere luck in its present position. According to them it is really "Lukan" in style, and has no connection to the Gospel of John:

Well, lets have a look:

We count over a half dozen phrases and clauses having a close correspondence with John's Gospel, amounting to nearly two dozen words in only 12 verses!

Awfully remarkable (including three whole clauses) for an unrelated story accidentally 'dropped' into John willy-nilly:

http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/CHARTS/John6and8-WEB.jpg

(Edited to remove oversized image.)

 

But someone will object:

"Oh sure, it is closely connected to John NOW, after all a clever forger would do just this: He would borrow vocabulary, phraseology, themes, even structural patterns from John, to make it look authentic."

Perhaps a forger would do those things. But then the explanation about it being an 'accidental insertion' by some copyist is completely farcical and bogus now, isn't it? It must have been composed expressly for its insertion right here.

Yet this is only HALF the question isn't it?

Does the passage know anything about John? It SURE DOES.


But isn't the real question,

Does JOHN know anything about the passage?


It SURE IS THE REAL QUESTION.

Lets take a look:


http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/CHARTS/John-Interlock1.jpg


Wow! It looks like this parallel correspondence every two chapters or so is built right into JOHN, and can't be the dumb luck of a forger!

A forger would have to have written in this very same correspondence elsewhere, such as is found between chapter 5 and chapter 7, which remains in place even when John 8:1-11 is removed!

Notice that removing John 7:53-8:11 doesn't even remove all the correspondence between 6 and 8!


Lets have a look at those parallels:

To start, Culpepper helpfully diagrams the connections between chapter 5 of John and chapter 7. On page 166 he provides a chart, showing a remarkable and deep linkage between two sections of John, 5:1-47, and 7:15-24:


John 5____________________________________Jn 7:15-24

5:47.........."letters" /what is written' (grammata).....................7:15
5:31..........speaking on His own behalf..................................7:17
5:44..........seeking the glory from God...................................7:18
5:45-47......Moses gave the Law.......................................7:19-25
5:18...........seeking to kill Jesus........................................7:19-20
5:1-18 .......healing of man at pool/'one work'.........................7:21
5:1-18........"I healed a man's whole body on Sabbath............7:23
5:9.............the sabbath.......................................................7:23
____________________________________________________

Obviously the connections between the two passages run deep. And neither of these two passages are suspected of being additions on any textual grounds. The MSS tradition is unwavering here. Also, no one has ever produced any internal evidence suggesting either or both of these two passages was some kind of addition or insertion.

From: The Gospel and Letters of John,
by R. A. Culpepper ( 1998 Abingdon Press pp.170-171 )


But now let us add our own second chart, showing the remarkably similar connection between two other passages in John:
Now we extend this list with the parallels between chapter 6 and 8:

John 6__________________________________John 8:1-11

6:14............ the Prophet to come.......................................7:52
6:15.............Jesus retires to mountain alone.......................8:1
6:17............it was now night................................................8:1
6:22..........the following day, the crowd/people stood.........8:2
6:37,44...........the people came to Him...............................8:2
6:21................they willingly received Him...........................8:2
6:45................they were taught of God..............................8:2
6:25................they said to Him Rabbi/Teacher..................8:4
6:32................Moses gave them bread/law........................8:5
6:30..............."What do you work/say?"..............................8:5
6:36.................they believed Him not................................. 8:6
6:21................on the ground...............................................8:6
6:41-2.............they murmered at/pressed Him....................8:7
6:34...............then they said, "give us this bread"
.......................and they that heard were convicted.............8:9
6:39-40........."I will raise them up"
......................Jesus raised Himself up..............................8:10
6:47.........."whosever believes in Me has eternal life"
....................."Neither do I judge thee"...............................8:11
_________________________________________________

Note that the parallel includes the 'joining section' (John 7:53-8:1). The whole purpose of this transitional portion is to intentionally connect to the previous part of John (the end of chapter 7).
The parallel also involves the previous verse, 7:52, which is not even in dispute as a part of John's Gospel. There is no textual evidence of a gloss here in 7:52 either.
In case this weren't enough, there are the incredible direct parallels in language between chapter 6 and the passage:
The word-for-word parallels between John 8:1-11 and John 6:1-21:

John 6:3 : anhlqen de eiV to oroV IhsouV (But Jesus went to the mountain...)
John 8:1 : IhsouV de anhlqen eiV to oroV (But Jesus went to the mountain..)

John 6:5 : poluV ocloV ercetai proV auton (a great crowd came unto Him)
John 8:2 : paV o laoV hrceto proV auton (all the people came unto Him)

John 6:6 : touto de elegen peirazwn auton (this He said testing him)
John 8:6 : touto de elegon peirazonteV auton (this they said testing Him)

John 6:10 anapesein ...anepesan...oi andreV (sit down, the men sat down)
John 8:6 : o de InsouV katw kujaV (but Jesus bent down...)

John 6:21 ...kai euqewV egeneto to ploion epi thV ghV (... upon the ground )
John 8:6b ...kategrafen eiV thn ghn ([Jesus was] writing in the ground )
______________________________________________________

It becomes obvious that whoever composed John 8:1-11 was intimately familiar with and extensively used John chapt. 6 as a template (or vise versa). But this is exactly the habit and pattern of the composer of 5:1-47, and 7:15-24, namely John the evangelist himself.
Once again it becomes clear that this cannot be any kind of naive 'insertion' of a story previously unrelated to John, by some scribe or editor trying to preserve an 'ancient tradition' or 'authentic oral story'. Either the gospel was extensively and carefully rewritten to include the pericope, or it was always an integral part of John's gospel.

...or maybe its original....

(Edited to remove oversized image.)

 

Why are you trying to reverse the tables?

Come out of your own little world and see the destruction that huge publishing campaigns and large corporate vested interests have done to the Bible.


It may be that the majority of Baptists still read the KJV, but you are less than 2% of Christendom world-wide.

99/100 bibles are modern versions, and the largest international bible society in the world, the UBS, distributes modern versions in 180 languages, all with brackets and footnotes around John 8:1-11. Its not just English speakers who are under attack, and who are too self-centered to care what is happening everywhere else in the world.



We are not attacking the authenticity of John 8:1-11, but defending it.

And not by tucking ourselves into our own little denominations and pretending there is nothing happening.

EVERY MODERN VERSION (except the NKJV) has BRACKETED and FOOTNOTED these verses as a 'later insertion', "NOT FOUND IN THE OLDEST AND BEST MANUSCRIPTS"...


We are doing what you are NOT. And its obvious that these horrific attacks and trends are not only OUTSIDE the Baptist churches.

One of the most viscious and vocal attackers of these verses IS A BAPTIST, a famous (for an American) scholar named Daniel Wallace, a Professor' at DALLAS THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, who along with other Jesuit infiltrators, has virtually taken over Western Protestantism, for the express purpose of undermining and destroying true Protestantism which defends the authority of the Scripture as higher than that of any 'church'.


What WE are doing is providing HARD EVIDENCE that these verses are authentic, and that those manuscripts which leave out these verses are artificial productions of a later corrupt ecclesiastical authority hostile to the verses, and indeed, hostile to the whole idea of Holy Scripture having higher authority than ecclesiastical authority.

 

Well, you apparently haven't read the first 17 posts, so its no surprise that you haven't read or understood the last five posts by me.


I am defending the authenticity of John 8:1-11, not attacking it.


Try flexing that brain harder.

Peace,
Nazaroo

 

The agenda was discussing the interpretation of John 8:1-11.

However apparently no one who is posting in this thread is actually interested in the topic.

My question now, is why, if you are not interested in the topic, are you posting in this thread?

It just doesn't seem sensible.

My question goes out to all:

If you are not really interested in the topic of this thread, why not start a new thread and post there? If you have questions that are not on-topic, why not start a thread about those topics and questions?

If I am interested in those topics, I will respond in those threads.

thanks in advance.

Peace,
Nazaroo

 

Let us continue for a moment on the theme of whether or not John knows anything about these verses.

We saw that there is a strong hard-core correspondence in phraseology and vocabulary between John 8:1-11 and John 6. We saw that this pattern extends beyond to John chapter 5 - chapter 7, showing that it is a part of John's normal writing style, or else the whole gospel has been tampered with.

But many readers will not know that there are also OTHER structures, Chiastic structures built into John which involve John 8:1-11:

Here is one of the most important Chiastic structures in the gospel;

http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/pa/INT-EV/CHIASM_files/CHIASM-3.jpg
http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/pa/INT-EV/CHIASM_files/CHIASM-4.jpg

In this chiasm, we see a stepped pyramid, with Jesus ascending the Mount of Olives in the centre.

(Edited to remove oversized image.)

 

Nor is this Chiastic patterning dependant on the insertion of John 8:1-11.

In fact, John uses chiastic patterns elsewhere too:


http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/pa/INT-EV/CHIASM_files/CHIASM-5.jpg



If John uses Chiastic patterns elsewhere, and John 8:1-11 is included in one, is it too much to expect that John 8:1-11 also itself includes its own chiastic structure?


Apparently not too much!

http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/CHARTS/realchiasm.jpg



So we see that structure is interwoven at every level, and it intimately involves John 8:1-11.

More importantly, John 8:1-11 is indistinguishable in nature; vocabulary, syntax, theme, structure, poetic form, in its very soul, from any other part of John.

(Edited to remove oversized image.)

 

One should not think that these surprising chiastic structures were somehow 'smuggled into' John either. In fact, from start to finish, John is structured in Seven groups of Seven sections, miracles, discourses etc.

These structures are integral to the composition of John, and John can hardly be considered without it as a prominent conscious feature of the author:


http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/pa/INT-EV/CHIASM_files/CHIASM-1.jpg
http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/pa/INT-EV/CHIASM_files/CHIASM-2.jpg


Perhaps not so surprisingly now in hindsight, John's gospel turns out not to have ONE overall structural pattern, but at least TWO:


http://cadesign.webworkercanada.com/pa/INT-EV/CHIASM_files/Image125.gif


In fact, as we said, this "pattern of Sevens" goes deeper at least one more level into John:






PROLOGUE (1.1-1:51)

1. Introductory Poem (1:1-13)
2. Interpretive Thesis (1:13-18)
3. Testimony of John the Baptist (1:19-34)
4. Day 1 of Jesus' Ministry: Calling of Disciples Andrew, John (1:35-42)
5. Day 2: Calling of Philip and Nathanael (1:42-47)
6. Testimony of Nathanael: Son of God and King of Israel (1:48-49)
7. Foreshadowing from Jesus (1:50-51)



​

I. FIRST MIRACLES: CANA, [SAMARIA], GALILEE, JERUSALEM (2:1-5:47)

1. 1st Sign - at Cana on Third Day: Marriage (2:1-11)
2. Cleansing of the Temple at Jerusalem (2:12-25)
3. 1st Discourse with Nicodemus: Born of Spirit (3:1-21)
4. Testimony of John the Baptist (2nd time) in Judea (3:22-36)
5. Ministry in Samaria (4:1-42)

2nd Discourse with Samaritan Woman: Living Water (4:1-30)
Disciples ask about Food, Jesus expounds Harvest (4:31-39)
Ministry in Samaria completed (4:40-42)
​

6. 2nd Sign in Galilee: Healing the Nobleman's Son (4:43-54)
7. 3rd Sign in Jerusalem: Healing Cripple by Pool of Bethesda (5:1-47)



​

Jesus Heals Cripple on Sabbath and tells him to carry bed (5:1-9)
Judeans interrogate Healed Cripple (5:10-13)
Judeans seek to kill Jesus and confront Him (5:14-18)
3rd Discourse: Jesus on Son of God - His Authority (5:19-47)




II. SECOND GROUP OF MIRACLES: GALILEE AND JERUSALEM (6:1-8:1)

1. 4th Sign in Galilee: Feeding of the 5000 (6:1-14)
2. 5th Sign in Capernaum: Walking on the Water (6:15-21)
3. 4th Discourse: Jesus is the true Bread from Heaven (6:22-58)
4. People Divided: Many murmur and turn away (6:59-66)
5. Testimony of Peter: Jesus has words of Eternal Life (6:67-71)
6. 5th Discourse on Feast of Tabernacles: the Water of Life (7:1-39)
7. People Divided: Disputes among themselves, Jesus withdraws (7:40-8:1)



​

The Pericope De Adultera (8:2-11) "At Dawn He Came..."




III. THIRD GROUP OF MIRACLES: JERUSALEM AND BETHANY (8:12-12:11)

1. 6th Discourse: The Light of the World (8:12-59)
2. 6th Sign in Jerusalem: Blind Man Healed (9:1-34)
Blind Man Healed (9:1-12)
Blind Man interrogated, cast out (9:13-34)
Testimony:Jesus is the Son of God (9:35-38)
3. 7th Discourse: The Door into the Kingdom (9:39-10:21)
Parable of the Door of the Sheepfold (9:39-10:6)
Parable Explained: Jesus is the Door to the Kingdom (10:7-18)
People Divided: Judeans argue among themselves (10:19-21)
4. Dispute: Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem: the Christ? (10:22-42)
Jesus is Only the Messiah for His Believing Sheep (10:22-30)
Judeans attempt to stone Jesus, Jesus argues (10:31-39)
Jesus escapes and returns to the Jordan (10:40-42)
5. 7th Sign in Bethany: Lazarus Raised from the Dead (11:1-57)
Lazarus falls sick, dies (11:1-16)
Jesus arrives and talks to sisters (11:17-37)
Jesus prays and raises Lazarus (11:38-46)
6. The Council: the High Priest 'prophecies' Jesus' death (11:47-54)
Chief priests and Pharisees plot to kill Jesus (11:55-57)
7. Jesus Anointed at Bethany by Mary, sister of Lazarus (12:1-8)
Chief priests plot to murder Lazarus too (12:9-11)



​

IV. THE HOUR OF JESUS : 8th Sign and Discourse (12:1-50)

1. The Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem (12:12-19)
2. The Greeks (the Diaspora) Seek Jesus! (12:12-22)
3. The Hour Has Come: The Dying Seed of Wheat (12:23-29)
4. The Judgement of This World has Come (12:30-33)
5. Walk in the Light (12:34-36)
6. They do not believe in Him (12:37-43)
7. Jesus' Last Call: He represents the Father (12:44-50)



​

V. JESUS LAST TIME WITH DISCIPLES (13:1-17:26)

1. Footwashing Ceremony & Judas' Treachery (13:1-20)
2. Judas' Iscariot's Departure (13:21-30) "And it was Night..."
3. The Great Commandment (13:31-35)
4. Exchange with Peter: On Departure (13:36-14:4)
5. Exchange with Thomas: Corrections (14:5-7)
6. Exchange with Philip: Promise of Spirit of Truth (14:8-21)
7. Exchange with (loyal) Judah: Keeping the Word (14:22-31)

8. "I AM the True Vine": abiding and producing (15:1-8)
9. The Great Commandment: More detail (15:9-17)
10. The World's Hatred: Against Jesus & Disciples explained (15:18-25)
11. Persecution Fortold: Hate against followers prophecied (15:26-16:6)
12. The Holy Spirit: More on action of Holy Spirit (16:7-15)
13. The End of Parables: Plain talk for the future (16:16-33)
14. Jesus' Final Prayer: for His disciples (17:1-26)



​

VI. BETRAYAL ARREST CRUCIFIXION (18:1-19:42)

1. Betrayal and Arrest (18:1-14)
2. Peter's First Denial (18:15-18)
3. Caiaphas interrogates Jesus (18:19-24)
4. Peter denies twice more (18:25-27)
5. Pilate Questions Jesus (18:28-37)
6. Pilate offers Barabbas (18:38-40)
7. Jesus Mocked and Beaten (19:1-7)



​

8. Pilate Questions Again (19:8-12)
9. Pilate Orders Crucifixion (19:13-16)
10. Jesus is Crucified (19:17-24)
11. Jesus arranges care for His mother (19:25-27)
12. Jesus dies (19:28-30)
13. Jesus body examined by Romans (19:31-37)
14. Jesus is Buried by Nicodemus and Joseph (19:38-42)



​

VII. RESURRECTION APPEARANCES (20:1-31)

1. Jesus' Body Missing (20:1-10)
2. Jesus Appears to Mary (20:11-19)
3. Jesus Appears to disciples (20:19-23)
4. Jesus Appears to Thomas (20:24-29)
5. First Summary Ending (20:30-31)

EPILOGUE (21:1-25)
​

6. Jesus Appears Again (21:1-14)
7. Jesus prophecies Peter's Future (21:15-24)



​

Final Summary (21:25)


Note also that these hidden structures vouchsafe and protect other key passages that have been erroneously called into doubt as 'additions' to the gospel, such as the famous 'epilogue' of chapter 21.

Particularly stunning is the parallel sets of Double-Sevens (14) parts to Jesus' speech at the Last Supper, and 14 sections to the Passion account. These are clearly meant to resonate with one another. One only need put the two groups of 14 passages in two columns side by side to see their amazing correspondence.

Again, it seems John has carefully planned his Gospel from one end to the other with tamper-proof safeguards to prevent the ignorant from mutilating or otherwise altering his original work.

 

Wow, I have to ask: Is the sun down there in the South baking everyone's brain?

Am I not writing plain English?

We are defending the authenticity and Johannine authorship of John 8:1-11, which has been called into question (NOT BY US) by most modern textual critics, and is placed in brackets with disparaging footnotes in almost every modern translation of the Bible.

We BELIEVE John wrote this passage. How many different ways must we say it.

How much more powerful evidence do you need to see it?


Peace,
Nazaroo