The Jihad Seminar of Major Hasan

Discussion in 'News / Current Events' started by Marcia, Nov 23, 2009.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Interesting summary of what Hasan presented in his Powerpoint slide presentations about Jihad.

    http://markdurie.blogspot.com/2009/11/jihad-seminar-of-major-nidal-m-hasan.html
     
  2. Gold Dragon

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  3. Marcia

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    Since he was a psychiatrist, I doubt this was a mental disorder. They are monitored for that very carefully. Also, he was very reasonable when he presented this material; so reasonable, that no one thought he was unbalanced.

    I think the people who heard these presentations would not have hesitated to report him for mental problems, but they would (and did) hesitate to report him for the content alone because it's so politically wrong to criticize Islam or those who follow it.
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Libbies always want to assign mental disorder.:rolleyes:
     
  5. Gold Dragon

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    I am not aware of any special monitoring of psychiatrists. Is this a feature of military psychiatry?

    Maybe you are right and he was mentally balanced. But I find it quite odd that in a presentation that was supposed to be able medical issues even if only loosely related (apparently some people talked about household products and molds), that he did not make a single medical point in his slides.

    I would not call that psychosis or mental illness that would actually justify the plea of not guilty by reason of insanity. But it does display an obsessionality with fear of fighting against other muslims that required coming up with this long and I would say disordered thesis to defend his belief. His obsession impaired his ability to perform his normal duty of presenting an even remotely medical topic.
     
    #5 Gold Dragon, Nov 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2009
  6. windcatcher

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    Yes. Marcia is right. It is part of the educational process by which they are trained, intern, and are licensed to practice. Confrontation may begin in the classroom.... but becomes more intensified as a process of their clinical performance and evalution... plus intermittant personal reviews and interviews which they must pass to progress in their field.
    I hear you saying that if those hearing his presentation had thought he was mentally unbalanced...... then they would have complained. Because his peers did not see evidence of a mental imbalance.... they accepted his presentation, even its bizarre focus and content as a difference in culture and religous perspective which is consistant with being politically correct..... no confrontation, no challenge, no complaint.

    Unfortunately, perhaps the 'non-judgemental' approach to patients, disciplined into all areas of medical care providers, also gives many professionals a blind eye to developments which are deserving of critique and judgement..... be it review of research, a speach on the ethics of defining medical outcomes and services on the basis of expense, efficiency and human resources, etc. In this case.... it is likely that his peers did not receive the message that this was this man's personal beliefs.... and whether he connected the dots or not to its relavancy, they assumed a closure beliving this a presentation of culture differences and mind set which was instructive in understanding the patient with an islamic religion and culture.

    While psychiatry does involve itself with other medical causes such as the processes of disease, imbalances in hormonal or chemical imbalances, parasitic or other infections, it also involves identifying various environmetnal, cultural and religious pressures which may be relative to communicating with and understanding those who are ill either mentally and/or physically. The personalization of his presentation and lack of objectivity should have flagged this for inquiry..... but, professional shielding and permissiveness, plus our own culture's over concern with political correctness failed to identify the formation of this problem.


    Country folk have a saying 'you can take the man from the country, but never take the country from the man.' This applies very well to the foundations.... culture, religious beliefs, values, in which each of us are raised.
     
  7. Marcia

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    I am not sure if it is done in the military but in the secular world, psychiatrists are supposed to be seeing other psychiatrists for evaluation at regular intervals. I have only heard this so that is all I offer, but it makes sense.

    At any rate, I am sure anyone becoming a psychiatrist for the military would be evaluated in some way. I think everyone is evaluated before they are deployed, aren't they?


    Well, I first heard about this on NPR. The way it was described, the people who heard this found it strange but were not alarmed. It apparently was not unusual enough to make anyone think he was unstable.

    It is not an obsession; it is an Islamic view among many Muslims, including the cleric that is in Yemen, who used to be in a mosque 3 miles from where I live and was the cleric there when Hassan prayed there. Muslims feel united across national lines; to go to Iraq or Afghanistan and fight is to kill fellow Muslims. Many Muslims abhor this.
     
  8. Gold Dragon

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    I'm quite sure this is not the case. I don't know of any regular practice to see other psychiatrists for psychiatric evaluation. In fact, I would think the thought of opening yourself up to a peer in the field is something psychiatrists would actively avoid unless there was something seriously wrong. It isn't like psychiatrists have so many open appointments in their calendars that they are able to see other psychiatrists that are completely healthy from a mental health perspective on a regular basis. That just sounds like a massive waste of time and resources for two very busy professionals who hopefully will know when to seek help when they really do have a problem.

    My guess is that there is psychiatric evaluation when they join the military to weed out the psychopaths but I can't see them evaluating every soldier right before deployment. The military needs to mobilize thousands of men in short periods of time. I can't see them having enough psychiatrists to evaluate all of them or even a random sampling of some of them in that time period.

    A job performance review is not the same as a psychiatric evaluation.
     
    #8 Gold Dragon, Nov 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2009
  9. Gold Dragon

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    Apparently there is a pre-deployment screen but less than 1% of deployed soldiers get it.


     
  10. Gold Dragon

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    This paper talks about initial psychiatric evaluation when joining the air force.

     
  11. windcatcher

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    FYI, psychologist and psychiatrist are reviewed throughout their education and interviewed as imbalances in their mental capacity may have tremendous impact on or take advantage of the vunerabilities in a special population. They are scrutinized as to their own self awareness and vunerabilities and their ability to be objective.... both in governing themselves and in their perception and treatment of the patient. Almost anyone undergoing such an evaluation discovers there are 'personality' strengths and weaknesses which aproximate degrees along a line which is neither in an average range nor at the extreme of pathological diagnosis... but reveals tendencies and may suggest coping strategies or cognitive awareness by which one orders their interpersonal relationships as well as maintaining objectivity in professional practice.

    A job performance evaluation can also include the request or condition continued employment for the employee to visit the EAP if comments or complaints of superiors or peers or patients or observed changes in communications or behaviors have suggested the need for a separate and more intensive and confidential evaluation. While the evaluation is considered confidential regarding the employee.... yet the counselor is usually a paid agent of the company or agency which initiates the requests and is subject to assess and report back certain information which may indicate a tendency to suicide, homicide, or admit to abuse or plans for the above. Yes, a psychological testing or review is part of the credentialing process of professionals inthat field..... which includes the medically qualified doctor of psychiatry.
     
  12. Gold Dragon

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    Ok, but we are still talking about whether psychiatrists get psych reviews. You are talking about job evaluations that have psychiatric components. The two are very different. One focuses on their job and is more about the psychiatrist being talked to about their job performance. The other looks at their entire life and is about the psychiatrist sharing about their mental health.
     
    #12 Gold Dragon, Nov 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2009
  13. windcatcher

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    Defend political correctness all you want. It doesn't fly.

    I'm talking about both and you're not listening. Why should I bother with you?
     
  14. Gold Dragon

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    I don't understand why it is politically correct to say that I don't believe psychiatrists and psychologists get regular psychiatric review. But if it makes you feel better to attach that label, I don't mind taking it.

    I don't see anywhere in your post that says they do get regular psychiatric review. You are simply saying that their evaluation during their educational process includes psychiatric components, which is not a psych review since it is still primarily focused on job performance and not on overall mental health. As you say about the EAP, it requires someone else to make a complaint and is not a regular thing, the same as any other career.
     
  15. Marcia

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    Actually,it does make sense It is very important for psychiatrists to maintain objectivity and have someone to vent to when they handle so many types of problems. But neither you nor I know if it is the case that psychiatrists must see other psychiatrists on a regular basis. I guess we would have to ask a psychiatrist.
     
  16. Marcia

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    I know the above addresses Windcatcher, but I want to comment that I think a job performance review of a psychiatrist treating others would have to include some evaluation of mental stabililty.

    Moreover, the FBI saw the emails Hasan sent to the radical cleric in Yemen (who preaches violence and the killing of U.S. soldiers) and yet even they did not see fit to share these with the military. So not only did they not see a danger, but knowing that Hasan was a psychiatrist, they did not even see this as mental imbalance, apparently.

    The violence we see in some Muslim extremists is cultural and religious. There is nothing to indicate it has to do with mental imbalance, especially since they can back it up from the Koran.
     
  17. Gold Dragon

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    I agree that the islamic content of his slides are not indicative of mental imbalance. It is the context that it was presented and delivery style of the presentation that makes me consider some imbalance. The topic could have been about butterflies, flowers and even Christianity and I would feel the same way.

    Of course, even if he were mentally imbalanced when he made that presentation, that type of imbalance does not justify a ruling of "not guilty by reason of insanity" which is very specific about circumstances when mental illness would justify that ruling.
     
  18. Gold Dragon

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    I see them every day right now since I'm doing a psychiatry rotation. I'll ask a few but the practice might be different between Australia and the US.
     
  19. Gold Dragon

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    I feel like I need to keep re-iterating that just because I feel Hasan may have had a mental disorder does not excuse his actions.

    A murderer that is psychotic is still a murderer and will not be able to use the insanity plea if during his murder, his psychosis did not affect his ability to know what he was doing or to know that what he was doing was wrong. That psychotic person is still getting the maximum penalty for murder 1.

    Additionally, even if the psychosis does justify a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity, the murderer will still be incarcerated for a long period of time, maybe for life. In some situations, the insanity plea resulted in longer incarcerations than if they had not made that plea. The incarceration will be in a psychiatric institution instead of a prison. Some may argue that this is worse than prison, depending on the facilities in question.

    Suite 101: Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity: Ticket to freedom?
     

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