The Journey Home

Maybe they should call that show "Drowning in the Tiber River".

I don't know why who did what, but I will say that a person who is soundly saved and has a sound grasp of basic Christian doctrine will stay as far away from Roman Catholicism as they can.

 

I know it's hard to understand a born again person becoming Roman Catholic, but I know of several who have done so. I've come to the conclusion that there are emotional reasons behind this. One friend told me he "felt at home" in the Catholic church. Another reason seems to be confusion about church history. A lot of evangelicals seem to think the Roman Catholic church was the first church and/or existed before it really did.

One person who swam over the Tiber recently is Francis Beckwith who, at the time he decided to do it, was President of ETS, the Evangelical Theological Society. He resigned as Pres. of ETS before making the official conversion. This was a huge shock to everyone as Beckwith is considered an evangelical scholar and is a professor at Baylor. I've heard him speak at conferences and I was pretty surprised.

The person who wrote the entry at the link below has some good thoughts on why this turn to Roman Catholicism is happening among some evangelicals and I think he makes good points. He says there is something from this evangelicals can learn:
http://chaosandoldnight.wordpress.c...-francis-beckwiths-conversion-to-catholicism/

 

Curious...when would you say it did come into existence?

 

There is disagreement on this, but it seems the Roman Catholic church more or less came into existence around the 4th or 5th century. Until there was a pope, basically all Christians were in one church, the early church. The RC church, of course, claims that it began with Peter.

The problematic teachings that many non-Catholics have issue with came much later, such as Transubstantiation (I think around the 11th century), the Assumption of Mary (1950s), the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (this refers to Mary being born without sin) came in the 15th century although it was not a dogma until the 19th century. Thus, many corruptions in the RC teachings came quite a bit after the time of the early church and even after the time the RC church was considered to have begun.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/catholicism.htm

 

Thanks, yeah, it makes sense that the begining may have started with the first Pope. And yes, the RC belief about Peter=rock=Pope is alive and well; I've debated against that theory a few times.

Btw, I heard Newt Gingrich recently went from Baptist to RC. It is odd how intelligent people could make that switch, especially ones that you would think hold to scripture being the final authority.

 

Yes, I just read that about Gingrich today or yesterday. I didn't know he had been Baptist, though.

I think this shows it is a spiritual deception, not an intellectual one (I say that all the time about the New Age because you have medical doctors and other smart people who are into the New Age). I'm always pointing out how we can't assume people who are deceived are dumb. And we can't assume that being a believer protects us from deception. In fact, much of the NT warns believers against false teachers/teachings.

 

Glad God put Col 2:8 on my heart from early in my walk. It was probably one of my first ten memory verses.

I've had lots of talks with my MIL (she goes to a RCC) and she listens and seems to agree with everything I explain about grace, yet she prefers to continue at the same church. My FIL was Catholic and she wasn't so they sent their kids to a protestant church, but now she goes the other way for some reason.

 

Imagine how I felt when I pastored a church and I found out that the deacons regularly invited the Mormon bishop to teach and preach. Then when I wrote a past national leader of the convention he told me to leave but never once ever took a stance against the church in any kind of public arena in the convention. In addition the state and local convention did nothing. To make matters worse three of the people in that same church were involved at the state level and did and said nothing against the leaders in the church. Of course one of the leaders in the church was a deacon and argued with me about the bishop being a Christian. The local non-convention pastors stood with me in against the church though. That is pure and simple hyposcrisy all in the name of autonomous churches. Explain how that is anything less than liberalism. Explain that kind of accomodating spineless action.

 

This is pretty shocking but not totally surprising to me, if that makes sense.

Are you being rhetorical or asking me to explain? I can only say that it's either gross ignorance or gross apathy or a desire to not offend, or a combination.

But I have come across Christians who seem to think Mormons are also Christians. I had someone walk out on me one time when I was speaking in a conservative church on "Will the Real God Please Stand Up?" and I was talking about the different views of God, including the Mormon view. It turned out later that the guy who walked out had been studying with his neighbor, a Mormon bishop. He wrote the church to complain about me and the church forwarded his email to me to answer. He actually accused me of making up what I said! I sent him links to prove I was right.

 

Sorry, Marcia, but if someone becomes a Roman Catholic and knowingly abandons Christianity to embrace the false doctrines of Catholicsm, that is a huge red flag that they're not born again.

 

I think we have to learn to differentiate between the individual person and the branch of religion they happen to attend.

Salvation is a personal thing and not a corporate decision. I know RC priests that are decidedly twice born and a true witness for Jesus Christ. They happen to be tangled up in a false religion.

Are we going to say the same things about one who happens to be Anglican; one who happens to be Lutheran; one who happens to be Presbyterian; one who happens to attend a liberal assembly..........? Just where do we draw the line?

I may be ashamed of myself if I weren't a Baptist, but I am not exclusive in the body of Christ.

Cheers,

Jim

 

OK. Think of it this way: Let's say that I say that I'm born again, but then I say, "You know, Christianity just isn't doing it for me anymore. Say, Hinduism looks nice. I think I'll become a Hindu" and I become a Hindu and embrace Hindu doctrines, and adopt the idea that I can be saved (or, at least, become a part of the Brahmin) if I hold to Hindu beliefs and engage in Hindu rituals.

Would you still believe that I'm born again?

Of course you wouldn't because you know that it goes against what the Bible says one must do to be born again and its description of that which will follow one who is born again.

Anglicans and Lutherans are Christians. Catholicism isn't.

But the body of Christ is very exclusive. That's why passages such as 2 John tells us that there is a doctrinal line in the sand, outside of which someone cannot be considered a Christian.

 

This sounds like a rather psychological/sociological explaination. What is seems to fail to acknowledge in the Protestant Reformation. Modern Evangelicalism has been in moral and doctrinal decline for quite some time now.

I expect to see further compromise and apostacy from that group...and many coming out of evangelicalism. Many true Christians are coming back to their biblical roots and understanding what it means to be Protestant again...that is, to Protest the errors and apostacy of Rome.

 

The people I know who became Roman Catholic were born again believers (this is only 2 people). I know I can't know with 100% certainty but as certain as I can be of anyone being born again, they were.

One had been raised RC and then left for whatever reasons. I met her at my church in the new membership class. I knew her for several years. She "went back" the RC church a few years ago.

The other person had been raised by Christian parents in a PCA church. He is the one who said he felt "at home" in a RC Church and eventually he joined. He did not tell me about it at first as I knew what my reaction would be.

I am convinced both of these people are believers.

Then we have Francis Beckwith, who was the Pres. of ETS. He also had been raised RC.

Christians can be deceived, you know.

 

It may sound that way, but at the heart of this, imo, is self-deception. People, including believers, have a powerful ability to believe what they want, even in the face of truth. This is why Christians can be deceived.

As I keep saying over and over in many threads, the NT warns believers about deception. The longer I live and the longer I do ministry, the more I think that people will believe what they want to believe if there is some draw or pull there.

That is one reason why God's word is so important and vital in the life of a believer; it is the anchor to our thinking and worldview, and when we ignore it or get away from it or misinterpret it, we are more vulnerable to wrong thinking (not to mention behavior).

 

The bad behavior of Baptists can drive people away.
You might run for the hills too if your father and brother, Baptist "elders" both, treated you like this: Abba's Little Girl blog

 

Neither one. My point was that there is often a lot of talk in conservative circles with little action other than what is convenient making them practical atheists with empty talk.

 

The phrase, "they went out from us because they were not of us" comes to mind.

Seriously, why would a born again person knowingly abandon Christianity for a false religion?

I agree. But don't forget, believing that a born again person can knowingly embrace a false religion is being deceived, too.

 

Why are we told to not suppress the Spirit if we can't? Does it make any difference if someone abandons Christianity for self instead of false doctrine...yet we see this happen each time we sin. Satan is called the Father of Lies for a reason...

 

That doesn't have anything to do with abandoning Christianity for a false religion. That's talking about not grieving the Holy Spirit and wreck your communion with God through sin.