The Judgment at the Last Day

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Jul 5, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Skandelon has posted a topic on the basis of God's judgment on man, with John 12:48 as his scripture. In that text, Jesus says:

    I have asked Skandelon originally these questions, but, for some reasons, I thought it better to post them as a topic.

    Here are the question:

    * what are the words that Christ says a man must receive,

    * and what is the word that He says will judge men at the last day ?

    * And will men receive these words without any aid from the Holy Spirit ?

    *Are all men inherently able to receive Jesus' words and word ?

    Additional questions for consideration. In John 12:48, the phrase 'hath one that judgeth him', is this one a who, as in a Person, or is this a 'what', as in the gospel, or what Christ identified as His words, since Arminians like Skandelon insist that the gospel is God's means of salvation.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Christ states that all that is HIS is the Fathers and all that is the FATHER's is His.

    Christ fully explainst that His John 12:48 statement is NOT a new set of opposing truths that are NOT the WORD of God as given to mankind in the scriptures at that time.

    "For I did not speak on my own initiative but the Father HIMSELF who sent ME has given Me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that HIS COMMANDMENT is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak JUST as the FATHER told Me" John 12:49-50

    Christ IS the God of the Old Testament AND of the New Testament. God the Son is ONE with God the Father in purpose and in message. Their Word is ONE.

    Christ never said "The Father said such and such BUT I say forget what HE said --- listen to Me".

    Christ's argument was always from the WORD - and the WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us. For IN the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the Word WAS GOD.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Bob Ryan said:
    Well, what about these:

     
  4. Skandelon

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    Here are the question:

    * what are the words that Christ says a man must receive,

    The words presented to us in the scripture.

    * and what is the word that He says will judge men at the last day ?

    That same word.

    * And will men receive these words without any aid from the Holy Spirit ?

    No, the Holy Spirit is the one who brought us these words in the first place. They are his work from the beginning. The word is our aid.

    *Are all men inherently able to receive Jesus' words and word ?

    Yes, unless they have been judicially hardened as were the Jews in the 1st century (John 12:39-40), otherwise they could see, hear and understand and repent.

    Most Calvinists would confirm that the gospel is also a means of salvation. You don't?
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    Skandelon asked:

    Calvinists, yes.

    Primitive Baptists, no. And Primitive Baptists are not Calvinists.

    So, no, I don't see God needing any means for regeneration/salvation.

    However, God does use means, people, the gospel, nature, to convert men. Although some of my PB brethren will probably come down on me like a ton of bricks on that one also.
     
  6. Skandelon

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    So are Primitive Baptists also to blame for HyperCalvinism, where they don't evangelize because God doesn't necessarily use that means or need it?

    Was it a PB that told William Carey not to go on missions because if God wanted to save his elect he could do it without his help?
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Each word in the Bible both Old and New Testaments have the same authority as if Christ stood in front of us saying these very things that we find in the Word of God. The power and authority comes from Genesis chapter one through Revelation chapter twenty-two.

    Are there other sources through which God can work other than the human witness or a portion or verse of the Bible, or His Divine providence?
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    If you are indeed a scholar, you will take time to read the BLACK ROCK ADDRESS AND ITS STAND ON MISSIONS.

    1. We do not object to churches sending out preachers who have felt the urgent call by God to labor in foreign or local fields.

    2. We DO object to Mission Societies. And here's a cut-and-paste quote straight from the Black Rock Address as to why.

    Whether God uses means to regenerate souls was not under consideration, because to the Primitive Baptist such doctrine is unthinkable.

    And whether it was a Primitive Baptist who told Carey what you said was told Carey, I do not know, I wasn't there, but, if he said that to point out that God does not use people or means to regenerate His people, then I stand with that man because what he said to Carey was true.

    I do not think Calvinists have a lack of hypers that Primitive Baptists have to be blamed for such.
     
  9. Skandelon

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    You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one friend.

    IMO, you are way off base and the first people who sould be calling you on that are the other Calvinists on the board.

    How will they believe unless they hear?
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    Skandelon said:

    Make the question a real less vague, Skan.

    Are you actually saying they cannot be saved unless they believe, and they cannot believe unless they hear, and they cannot hear unless someone preaches to them ?
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    Skan,

    We have a convert to the Christian faith or at least the Christian way of thinking about Biblical truth.

    The man said, 'Are you actually saying they cannot be saved unless they believe, and they
    cannot believe unless they hear, and they cannot hear unless someone
    preaches to them.'

    These are almost the exact words of God speaking through the Apostle Paul in Romans 10:13-15.
     
  12. npetreley

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    And then Paul goes on to say (and I paraphrase), did they not hear? Sure they did. But that didn't make any difference because they heard what they wanted to hear and tried to create a righteousness of their own.

    So, instead, salvation went to the Gentiles. And the result is that salvation came to those who did not seek God. Does this mean all Israel is lost? Nope. God has reserved for himself a remnant according to the election of grace. So for the most part, Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest God has blinded.

    Put that into your free will pipe and smoke it.
     
  13. Skandelon

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    Exactly. It was their choice to reject. Not all of them rejected as seen in the tesitmony of those who did believe throughout OT history, but the bulk majority of them did. In general the nation of Israel didn't believe eventhough God called them and longed to save them and pleaded for them to repent and return. (Romans 10:21; Matt. 23:37 etc).

    Exactly! Acts 28:28 tells us that they will listen. Not all of them, but in general they will respond. Why? Because they largely reconize their need because they see themselves as sinners unlike the pharasical jews. The message was being taken to the Gentiles as they were being ingrafted, all the while the Jews were being hardened, except for the remnant of Jews God reserved for himself to take the message of the cross to the world.

    First, I didn't think anyone sought God? This is a reference to those who had responded to being sought after by God, first to the Jews and then the Gentiles. And those he has "blinded" could be provoked to jealousy and saved as Paul teaches in Romans 11:14, so they CANNOT be the non-elect of Calvinism.

    Put that in your "I've got Romans 9 all figured out" pipe and smoke it. [​IMG]
     

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